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Biden for President?

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I think Bernie Sanders has a lot in common with Jeremy Corbyn. They both enthused a base of supporters, including young people, with a message of radical change(relative to their own political systems. Problem is that Corbyn turned out to be a train wreck when it came to the not so small matter of actually gaining the power needed to implement changes and I suspect Bernie Sanders will be much the same, once he is no longer simply preaching to the converted he will struggle with that middle ground of swing voters who will decide the election. Biden may be dull and middle of the road, but as others have suggested that may be what the USA needs for the next four years, a chance to catch its collective breath restore some sanity to the office of President.
 
Garrison said:
I think Bernie Sanders has a lot in common with Jeremy Corbyn. They both enthused a base of supporters, including young people, with a message of radical change(relative to their own political systems. Problem is that Corbyn turned out to be a train wreck when it came to the not so small matter of actually gaining the power needed to implement changes and I suspect Bernie Sanders will be much the same, once he is no longer simply preaching to the converted he will struggle with that middle ground of swing voters who will decide the election. Biden may be dull and middle of the road, but as others have suggested that may be what the USA needs for the next four years, a chance to catch its collective breath restore some sanity to the office of President.
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The Brexit variable is one so influential that I think it makes any comparison extremely dubious.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Exactly. Centrists aren't just pragmatic progressives, they are opposed to policies to the left/right of their centrism.
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"Centrist" is a slur you're applying to anyone who isn't so idealistic as to be beyond a chance of winning or... doing anything.

You might as well yell "You dirty centrists!" at the tide for coming in instead because we can't yet convince everyone to blow up the moon.
 
Stacyhs said:
I'm not against M4A in theory. It's how we pay for it that concerns me. But I don't think it would pass even if the Dems controlled both houses of Congress. And it most assuredly would not if the GOP retains the Senate.
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Then you haven't investigated the matter very closely. Sanders has detailed plans and explanations regarding to how to pay for M4A. For the most part (exception: proposed capital gains tax) these would be unlikely to face any honest political issues from the Democratic side at least. (Yes, of course they would be non-starters from the GOP side since they involve taxes and increased public services). The fact of the matter is that the US taxpayer is already bearing the financial burden that would be potentially incurred for M4A in the form of premiums, deductibles, extra administrative costs, and employer-side expenses.

The bitter pill from a political standpoint is that M4A necessarily involves driving existing insurance companies out of business - many of whom already have powerful lobbies, donate significantly to both parties, and employ hundreds of thousands of people. (Some other prominent health-related industries have vested interests in M4A not passing as well; pharmaceutical companies, for example). And the reluctance of the American public to get rid of their existing health care without having a clear idea of what they would get in return.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
"Centrist" is a slur you're applying to anyone who isn't so idealistic as to be beyond a chance of winning or... doing anything.

You might as well yell "You dirty centrists!" at the tide for coming in instead because we can't yet convince everyone to blow up the moon.
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Centrists isn't a slur, it's a description of a political position. Perhaps you haven't heard a real insult directed at these people.

Saying that Biden is a feckless, triangulating coward who has spent the entire campaign lying about his abysmal record is a slur.

We're already seeing the rise of populist right movements in the US. These weak-knee centrist dems are probably going to find themselves simultaneously outflanked on the left and right by hyper nationalist reactionaries that successfully appropriate social welfare programs as a right wing issue.

You've got ghouls like Tom Cotton criticizing the Dems covid-19 response as not enough and not prioritizing the average American for relief in the same breath saying that China should be "punished". These centrists are giving away the farm because they are terrified to move left even an inch.
 
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Hercules Rockefeller said:
Nice. You're gonna use the same excuse for your president?
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His president? You're proving his point.

NOTE for all: medicare for all and healthcare for all are not the same thing.

SuburbanTurkey said:
Exactly. Centrists aren't just pragmatic progressives, they are opposed to policies to the left/right of their centrism.
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You don't seem to understand what centrism is, then.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
I suppose the question is whether you believe Sanders would try to push through a hopeless "ideologically pure" bill, or whether you believe he's a savvy enough politician to try to implement palatable changes over time.
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He's never gotten anything passed in 30 years as a legislator. He's also never made a single friend in the Senate in all the time he's been in there. When the chips were down in the primary every other candidate that dropped out told him to go suck a lemon.


We have demonstrable history showing us that Bernie is terrible at politics. And that alone was reason enough for me to spurn him despite liking most of his policies. A guy that proposes good stuff but is clearly incapable of implementing it is worthless. On the other hand a guy that is more of a blank slate and has a solid history of coalition building and getting things done is valuable.
 
Shadowdweller said:
Then you haven't investigated the matter very closely. Sanders has detailed plans and explanations regarding to how to pay for M4A. For the most part (exception: proposed capital gains tax) these would be unlikely to face any honest political issues from the Democratic side at least. (Yes, of course they would be non-starters from the GOP side since they involve taxes and increased public services). The fact of the matter is that the US taxpayer is already bearing the financial burden that would be potentially incurred for M4A in the form of premiums, deductibles, extra administrative costs, and employer-side expenses.
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The US also pays more into the healthcare industry from taxes - both per capita and as a percentage of GDP - than UK. I don't know about other countries with socialised medicine, but I imagine it's similar.

I also saw an article the other day, which I may look for a little later if I have the time and inclination, which gave the results of studies by several think tanks from both sides of the political spectrum, and they all came to the conclusion that socialised medicine in the US would cost less over all than the current model.
 
Shadowdweller said:
Then you haven't investigated the matter
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To paraphrase Doctor House about religious people: if Biden supporters investigated the issues and voted accordingly, they wouldn't be Biden supporters. Most of them are for Medicare For All. The usual "how are you going to pay for it" attack is too transparent to seriously fall for. They just ignore it in favor of brilliant extra-dimensional strategery like "only electability matters so we must settle for the most unelectable one we can find because his surrogates & stooges keep blathering about how electable he is" or "my grandpa hated the Rooskies so that means nobody really wants health care or a livable wage".

Shadowdweller said:
(Yes, of course they would be non-starters from the GOP side since they involve taxes and increased public services).
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Actually, polls have shown that a majority of Republican voters favor Medicare For All, too. Of course, now that I wrote that, I realize that you might have meant the politicians, not the voters. Everything keeps coming back to how unresponsive to the voters most politicians are.

Shadowdweller said:
The fact of the matter is that the US taxpayer is already bearing more than the financial burden that would be potentially incurred for M4A in the form of premiums, deductibles, extra administrative costs, and employer-side expenses.
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Fixed
 
By the way, I've never wanted a campaign to lose more than I wanted Bernie to lose. Why? His supporters. They. Are. Trash.


When my dog died what did Bernie Bros on Twitter do? Why come into my timeline and tell me they were glad my dog died. When I would say that was low they'd just say things like, "lol, upset normie? Don't worry, therapy is covered under M4A!"


I think MAGA dolts are scum but none of them have ever been as sharply mean as the Bernie crowd has been to me. They find the thing that will hurt you the most and just go there, over and over and when called on it just retreat into "I can say whatever I want because I want everyone to have healthcare!"


At some point I decided I wanted decency more than ideological agreement and it was then that I transitioned to Biden. Decency matters.
 
Travis said:
By the way, I've never wanted a campaign to lose more than I wanted Bernie to lose. Why? His supporters. They. Are. Trash.


When my dog died what did Bernie Bros on Twitter do? Why come into my timeline and tell me they were glad my dog died. When I would say that was low they'd just say things like, "lol, upset normie? Don't worry, therapy is covered under M4A!"


I think MAGA dolts are scum but none of them have ever been as sharply mean as the Bernie crowd has been to me. They find the thing that will hurt you the most and just go there, over and over and when called on it just retreat into "I can say whatever I want because I want everyone to have healthcare!"


At some point I decided I wanted decency more than ideological agreement and it was then that I transitioned to Biden. Decency matters.
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:dl:
 
Travis said:
By the way, I've never wanted a campaign to lose more than I wanted Bernie to lose. Why? His supporters. They. Are. Trash.


When my dog died what did Bernie Bros on Twitter do? Why come into my timeline and tell me they were glad my dog died. When I would say that was low they'd just say things like, "lol, upset normie? Don't worry, therapy is covered under M4A!"


I think MAGA dolts are scum but none of them have ever been as sharply mean as the Bernie crowd has been to me. They find the thing that will hurt you the most and just go there, over and over and when called on it just retreat into "I can say whatever I want because I want everyone to have healthcare!"


At some point I decided I wanted decency more than ideological agreement and it was then that I transitioned to Biden. Decency matters.
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Ah yes, another anecdote about the vicious online Bernie Bro.

There is no evidence that Bernie Bros are any more vicious than all the other scum on the internet. Keyboard warriors come in all the flavors, including whoever you support. Such is life on the internet.

https://www.salon.com/2020/03/09/there-is-hard-data-that-shows-bernie-bros-are-a-myth/

Sorry that someone was a dickhead to you on the internet, but this is an insane way to make political decisions.
 
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TragicMonkey said:
Really. You'd really rather have an effective politician who does terrible things than an ineffectual politician who tries but fails to do good things?
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Errrr... sorta. I mean obviously it depends on how "terrible" we're talking but unless we're talking the extreme points on the Bell Curve a politician who does something is always preferable to one who doesn't.

You can't argue with idealist. You can't reason with them or compromise with them or appeal to them or... use them effectively to get anything done. A "dirty" politicians wants and desires will at least sometimes, even if only by accident, fall in line with the greater good.

Again assuming we're not talking crossing some line into outright mustache twirling evil a "bad" politician is still going to get good things done by pure chance or for the wrong reason and that's usually a net positive over "I will literally never accomplish anything because I think I'm too good to"

I don't want Littlefinger or Aerys over Eddard Stark, but I kind of do want at least Tyrion or Tywin over Eddard Stark.
 
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