Cont: 2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker Part IV

[The_Animus]

Overton Window much?
Biden's platform is incredibly progressive, just not as progressive as Sanders'.
It's weird to claim that Biden just wants to return to the Status Quo Ante. And it seems that Biden is moving to the left to woo Sanders' supporters for the general election.

And as soon as he wins he'll do what all politicians like that do. Drop the act and pursue what they intended to all along. I actually hate that aspect of politics. I'd much rather they all ran on what they actually believe and therefore what they will actually fight for. At least that way you know what you're getting and can vote accordingly.

 

[Minoosh]

Bernie said something reported yesterday that hints of a concession IMO - that he would be talking to people and debating Biden and finding out "who is best positioned" to take on Trump and/or move policy in a more progressive direction. That's a paraphrase. I don't really know much about his personality, if he is likely to concede that Biden might be that person. I can see it not being 100 percent clear at this point. Just as I was saying hmm, maybe that's
Bernie, several candidates dropped out and threw in with Biden. These people probably know each other pretty well and maybe they know more than I do which of their colleagues has a better shot.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I don't think Biden is the same as Trump. I just think his proposals, even if they are successful, are not enough to meet the moment.

A Biden administration is much preferable than a Trump administration, but it's still one that is tiptoeing from disaster. This country needs radical reform, and Joe isn't going to get it.

The Return to Normal™ strategy raises the spectre of recreating the conditions that lead to Trump. Consider the possibility that, while I understand many have been hurt by his Presidency, we got lucky that the tyrant catapulted into power is a buffoon.

I even wielded the Marius-Sulla-Pompey/Crassus-Caesar analogy several times early in Trump's administration. Trump isn't the scariest part about Trump, it's the crafty opportunist watching what Trump could be getting away with if he weren't getting in his own way.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The Return to Normal™ strategy raises the spectre of recreating the conditions that lead to Trump. Consider the possibility that, while I understand many have been hurt by his Presidency, we got lucky that the tyrant catapulted into power is a buffoon.

I even wielded the Marius-Sulla-Pompey/Crassus-Caesar analogy several times early in Trump's administration. Trump isn't the scariest part about Trump, it's the crafty opportunist watching what Trump could be getting away with if he weren't getting in his own way.

Nonsense.

First, it'll take 4 years for Biden to clean up the mess. Then we can elect someone else.

But second, there was no mess that led to Trump. Unless you are referring to bigotry and a constant message of how bad things were when they weren't.

Remember McConnell making it clear he planned to sabotage everything Obama did? And if his goal was to stack the SCOTUS with biased judges, what does that say about said 'conditions that led to Trump'? Are you including legal abortions in said conditions? Demanding religion get out of school science classes? What are these conditions you speak of?

 

[Aridas]

I don't think Biden is the same as Trump. I just think his proposals, even if they are successful, are not enough to meet the moment.

A Biden administration is much preferable than a Trump administration, but it's still one that is tiptoeing from disaster. This country needs radical reform, and Joe isn't going to get it.

...I hate to break it to you, but, given Sanders, the chance of radical reform in a Sanders Presidency would be unfortunately very, very low. Warren, given her overwhelming competence and serious networking, preparation, and planning, would have had a fighting chance (and is the only candidate that was in the field that did, really) - but even then, not even remotely a guarantee.

Nonsense.

First, it'll take 4 years for Biden to clean up the mess. Then we can elect someone else.

But second, there was no mess that led to Trump. Unless you are referring to bigotry and a constant message of how bad things were when they weren't.

Err... there was distinctly more than that. The GOP's lies and political nonsense is certainly a major factor and deserves significant emphasis, but it's hardly all there was - especially in places that tended to be controlled by Republicans. Take the coal industry as a rather obvious example, though hardly the only one. Its death has been slow and painful, but ever quickening... and that rather clearly causes problems in areas that are largely dependent on it. Denying the many, many problems isn't even remotely beneficial, much as hammering on the Republicans for usually making the actual problems hit much harder than they would have under actually responsible management of the situation might be useful. Much of the GOP's MO, really, is creating problems for the average person by overwhelming trying to put the power into a few (rich, though frequently not moral or competent) hands and then working to profit off of the inevitable problems that directly and indirectly result, one way or another.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

...I hate to break it to you, but, given Sanders, the chance of radical reform in a Sanders Presidency would be unfortunately very, very low. Warren, given her overwhelming competence and serious networking, preparation, and planning, would have had a fighting chance (and is the only candidate that was in the field that did, really) - but even then, not even remotely a guarantee.

Both Sanders or Biden are walking into the same partisan gridlock. The difference is how they will respond to it.

Biden's messaging about bipartisanship and good-faith negotiation shows that he refuses to deal with the situation as it is. McConnell is going to play him like a fiddle.

I don't expect Sanders to walk into office and wave a magic wand to make Medicare For All happen. I do think he would be able to radically reframe the discussion of the issue and drag the party back after years of rightward drift. We need a president that is going to draw a sharp contrast, not just another centrist that is just a more polite, less bigoted version of Republicans.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Nonsense.



First, it'll take 4 years for Biden to clean up the mess. Then we can elect someone else.



But second, there was no mess that led to Trump. Unless you are referring to bigotry and a constant message of how bad things were when they weren't.



Remember McConnell making it clear he planned to sabotage everything Obama did? And if his goal was to stack the SCOTUS with biased judges, what does that say about said 'conditions that led to Trump'? Are you including legal abortions in said conditions? Demanding religion get out of school science classes? What are these conditions you speak of?

I'm talking about 40 years of economic anxiety being experienced by most of us.

Congratulations on being insulated from it sufficiently such that aspects of the "culture war" apparently strikes you as the notable examples of hardships in our history.

 

[theprestige]

Really? You want a second term for Trump? If true, then I have badly assessed your political views.

I'm not particularly anxious or enthusiastic about it, if that's what you mean. If we get Sanders or Biden instead, that's okay too.

 

[theprestige]

Of course it is. Sheeeeeesh. If the president wants to enact his agenda - as all do - then he's got to jawbone, entreat, and bargain with the Congress to get done what he can. After all, the president is the #1 politician.

Having an agenda that extends beyond the execution of the President's duties isn't actually part of the President's job. Of course he does have one. And of course he hopes the Legislature will enact it, but having that agenda and getting the legislature to enact it isn't part of the job. The job is actually for the president to enact the legislature's agenda.

 

[Segnosaur]

Both Sanders or Biden are walking into the same partisan gridlock. The difference is how they will respond to it.

Biden's messaging about bipartisanship and good-faith negotiation shows that he refuses to deal with the situation as it is. McConnell is going to play him like a fiddle.

I think Biden has been around long enough and understands the political climate that he won't be "Played like a fiddle". He has seen how McConnell treated Obama.

I don't expect Sanders to walk into office and wave a magic wand to make Medicare For All happen. I do think he would be able to radically reframe the discussion of the issue

Oh, I get it...

You don't think Bernie has a "Magic wand", you think he just has magic powers. I guess that makes a big difference.

He's not a Harry Potter wizard, "Accio BernieCare". He's a Jedi. "These are not the policies you are looking for".

and drag the party back after years of rightward drift.

People often make the claim that the Democrats have had a "rightward drift", but is it really true? Well, lets see:

Clinton once signed the "defense of Marriage act". Now, gay marriage is something that widely accepted within the Democratic party. The party also seems to have accepted loosening restrictions on marijuana.

What about the economy? Well, again, Clinton had relaxed many of the financial regulations (which contributed to the crash of 2008). But Obama had restored many of those regulations, and most of the Democratic candidates want even stricter enforcement. And pretty much every Democrat wants an increase in the minimum wage.

Perhaps free trade is one area where many democrats have "drifted to the right", but I think evidence has shown that trade liberalization is usually beneficial to the economy.

We need a president that is going to draw a sharp contrast, not just another centrist that is just a more polite, less bigoted version of Republicans.

And there we go again.

Why should anyone give any attention to what you say if you consider a Democrat who wants to expand access to public health care, protect abortion rights and increase taxes on the wealthy as a "version of the republicans" just because they don't particularly like Sander's particular policies?

Again, is your understanding of the political landscape so skewed that you can't actually identify the differences between non-Sanders democrats and Republicans?

 

[theprestige]

Would the number of billions of dollars Trump has taken from the military without congressional approval to build his stupid wall change your opinion?

Not prima facie, no.

But I'm open to arguments otherwise.

I suspect part of the problem with such an argument is going to be:

IF the President asserts that money allocated to national security can be spent on specific national security programs at the President's discretion;

AND Congress neither passes laws to restrict that discretion, NOR challenges the expenditures in court;

THEN the President's assertion stands, and his discretion in such matters is properly part of his constitutional authority.

I suppose it all comes down to how Congress earmarked those specific billions, and whether this particular program arguably falls within the remit of that earmark.

 

[theprestige]

I think Biden has been around long enough and understands the political climate that he won't be "Played like a fiddle". He has seen how McConnell treated Obama.

Biden was Obama's VP. If he couldn't figure out how to handle McConnell then, what makes you think he can figure it out now?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

What about the economy? Well, again, Clinton had relaxed many of the financial regulations (which contributed to the crash of 2008). But Obama had restored many of those regulations, and most of the Democratic candidates want even stricter enforcement. And pretty much every Democrat wants an increase in the minimum wage.

Perhaps free trade is one area where many democrats have "drifted to the right", but I think evidence has shown that trade liberalization is usually beneficial to the economy.

I'm sure Biden is going to make abortion access his top priority. It's not like he's been opposed to that his entire career and only changed his view to clear the primary. Hope you're ready for him to stop talking about all together once the general election starts. Joe doesn't give a damn about abortion access, don't be naive. Joe's gonna gallop back to the right the second that he gets the nomination.

Joe was on an interview where he said he would veto Medicare for All if it managed to clear the legislature. He can't even pretend to support progressive policies in a hypothetical where a minor miracle has occurred. He cites "high costs" as the reason.

Free trade, what a resounding success. The people in the rust belt are sure glad they could make such a noble sacrifice for the good of the economy.

 

[Segnosaur]

I think Biden has been around long enough and understands the political climate that he won't be "Played like a fiddle". He has seen how McConnell treated Obama.

Biden was Obama's VP. If he couldn't figure out how to handle McConnell then, what makes you think he can figure it out now?

I never claimed that Biden would have a magical way to get around McConnel's obstructionism. No democrat has that (not even Sanders)

But the previous poster suggested that McConnell would "play Biden like a fiddle", suggesting he would be manipulated into doing things that were against the country's best interest. That is a different issue than whether there will be obstructionism.

I think Biden is smart enough not to be manipulated by Moscow Mitch. Yes, there may be times when some negotiation is warranted, but that would be the case with any Democrat.

 

[theprestige]

I never claimed that Biden would have a magical way to get around McConnel's obstructionism. No democrat has that (not even Sanders)

But the previous poster suggested that McConnell would "play Biden like a fiddle", suggesting he would be manipulated into doing things that were against the country's best interest. That is a different issue than whether there will be obstructionism.

I think Biden is smart enough not to be manipulated by Moscow Mitch. Yes, there may be times when some negotiation is warranted, but that would be the case with any Democrat.

My bad. Someone made the comparison to Obama. I inferred that they meant McConnell had played Obama, but Biden was too smart and too experienced to get played the same way.

My response to that inference is that Biden was already about as smart and experienced as he could be, when he served as Obama's VP. If he wasn't able to help Obama avoid getting played by McConnell, how could he help himself avoid the same fate, just a few short years later?

But if that inference was incorrect, then my response is moot.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm talking about 40 years of economic anxiety being experienced by most of us.

Congratulations on being insulated from it sufficiently such that aspects of the "culture war" apparently strikes you as the notable examples of hardships in our history.

I'm not insulated.

40 years of economic anxiety caused by whom?

Trump was elected because the country has had a steady diet of right wing propaganda. What I'm asking you is to be specific, just what specific causes of economic anxiety has the country experienced that you think Trump was the answer to? He was an answer to propaganda fed fear mongering. The economy was not crashing the 8 years prior to Trump. It's a big lie.

How is Biden going to ruin your day?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm not particularly anxious or enthusiastic about it, if that's what you mean. If we get Sanders or Biden instead, that's okay too.

You're watching incompetrump mishandle this crisis in real time and you'd be OK risking another 4 years?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Biden was Obama's VP. If he couldn't figure out how to handle McConnell then, what makes you think he can figure it out now?

First, McConnell's reelection is not certain. And even if he's reelected, the GOP holding the Senate majority is not certain either.

Second, McConnell does not have the power he once had. He tied his fortunes to Trump and Trump is falling flat on his face right now.

Third, Biden has 8 years of hindsight to draw on.

 

[dudalb]

If you want stupid, here it is....


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/elec...t-to-vote-for-joe/ar-BB118psS?ocid=spartandhp

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

If you want stupid, here it is....

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/elec...t-to-vote-for-joe/ar-BB118psS?ocid=spartandhp

Amplified for you by your friendly neighborhood trolls and bots farm.