Democratic caucuses and primaries

If you went back through this thread and deleted every post that could be boiled down to "I have a unsupported gut feeling opinion that my preferred candidate will win and you can't provide absolute total factual proof he won't, therefore we should go with my candidate" there'd be about 1/3rd as many posts.

It's politics. Other people's "unproven" like or dislike of a candidate actually matters a lot here.
 
d4m10n said:
I suppose that depends on whether you count broad social surveys or not.
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"We asked 500 Democrats and 250-300 of them support Sanders" - ironclad proof that Sanders will win the Presidency."

"Literally half of Americans will not even consider voting for a socialist President" - Is no evidence that Sanders has any disadvantages at all.

Again Sanders supporters are listening to people who are already on their side is mistaking that for "support."
 
JoeMorgue said:
We have exactly the same kind of evidence you have that he can.

Stop demanding that everyone provides absolute facts against your mere opinions.
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Actually, the complaint I have is: Stop pretending my POV is merely opinion while yours is a fact. I'm making the exact same point you're making by pointing out their lack of evidence.

I'm not claiming you, specifically are guilty of this.

But some are.

We've been stuck in this loop with the Sanders supporters for months. Every time anyone says something critical of Sanders we're asked for "proof" as if we're arguing from different point of view then the Sanders supporters.

We don't have to provide you with absolute proof of something to be allowed to have different opinions from you.
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It works both ways: I'm really tired of being asked to prove Sanders can withstand the coming GOP attacks. Recall that I was asked for evidence while you are only bitching when I ask for evidence. :rolleyes:

d4m10n said:
You have evidence Sanders can withstand the sort of attacks from the right which I linked to upthread? Let's see it. I'd be surprised to learn he's ever had to do this.
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Cabbage said:
Actually, the complaint I have is: Stop pretending my POV is merely opinion while yours is a fact. I'm making the exact same point you're making by pointing out their lack of evidence.
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- Most Sanders supporters will not vote for another candidate, only Sanders
- Most Americans will not vote for a socialists.

These are facts, not opinions.
 
d4m10n said:
I suppose that depends on whether you count broad social surveys or not.
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The last person I asked this of refused to answer:

In that case, why isn't it reflected in Sanders polls now? Sanders openly claims to be a socialist. We see polls claiming x% refuse to vote socialist, yet other polls have >(100-x)% supporting Trump over Sanders.

Why the discrepancy now?

And if there's a discrepancy now, why are you so confident about your expectation of the future?
 
And this is the game. Ignore "The polls" when the say Sanders is losing, treat them like gospel when he is winning.

I didn't hear one peep from the Sanders brigade for the months and months of early campaigning where Sanders was a distant third in the single digits. And if the momentum swings back to Biden or Warren or this new guy named "Obock Barama" who looks like Barack Obama wearing a pair of Groucho Marx glasses and a wig in the upcoming weeks the polls will stop mattering again.
 
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d4m10n said:
You have evidence Sanders can withstand the sort of attacks from the right which I linked to upthread? Let's see it. I'd be surprised to learn he's ever had to do this.
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He's doing it right now.

Cabbage said:
The last person I asked this of refused to answer:

In that case, why isn't it reflected in Sanders polls now? Sanders openly claims to be a socialist. We see polls claiming x% refuse to vote socialist, yet other polls have >(100-x)% supporting Trump over Sanders.

Why the discrepancy now?

And if there's a discrepancy now, why are you so confident about your expectation of the future?
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Because people don't really pay much attention to the label(s). They'll answer on that if that's all you ask about, but as soon as you ask about a person or policy, they'll answer on the person or policy, not whatever label somebody might slap on it. And policies that get called "socialist" happen to actually be popular policies, both with Democrat voters and with Republican voters, and the main guy pushing for such policies right now happens to be the country's most popular politician.

JoeMorgue said:
And this is the game. Ignore "The polls" when the say Sanders is losing, treat them like gospel when he is winning.

I didn't hear one peep from the Sanders brigade for the months and months of early campaigning where Sanders was a distant third in the single digits.
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Lies.

You know perfectly well that we were here all along pointing out that his policies polled well and would poll even better the more people heard about them and that he could and probably would rise in the polls with them once people started to see more of who the candidates are and what policies they favor.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
*Sighs*

I and... let's say 5 other guys are deciding we want to run for local... dogcatcher or whatever.

We all get together and agree amongst ourselves that we're going to play a few hands of Texas Hold'Em and whoever wins is the one who's going to run and the other 5 are going to vote for him.

Now please explain to me what we are going to be arrested, prosecuted, indicted, etc for.

That's all this is, just blown up to bigger proportions.
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Blown up to the point where there are state laws governing how they do business. Sort of like if the six of you were deciding who was going to have to make the beer run. At some point that grows to where you are a distributor and need licenses.

Once those parties accept any sort of official status the States get a say in how they run things.
 
Cabbage said:
Why the discrepancy now?
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As I said upthread, we've yet to see "an oppo blitz from the right" going after Sanders for his various flirtations with Marxist regimes. People haven't yet heard of Sanders praise for the Sandinistas or his attendance at Daniel Ortega's inauguration. Swing voters have yet to ask themselves why Sanders invited a Soviet spy to meet with him in 1983, or why he spent his honeymoon in the Soviet Union.

I think he'll eventually come up with good answers for all of these questions, but let's not pretend this won't hurt him with the voters who unfondly remember the Cold War.

Delvo said:
He's doing it right now.
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Okay then, show me the negative ads.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
- Most Sanders supporters will not vote for another candidate, only Sanders

- Most Americans will not vote for a socialists.



These are facts, not opinions.
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No, the polling on that question indicated there was a stronger contingent of such in Bernie's supporters, but not a majority.

The article I recall combined those who won't vote for anyone but Bernie with those who say they won't vote for "any candidate." Then that was compared to only those die hards in other candidates' corners.

Which is to say Bernie's supporters will get behind certain candidates.

You really need to stop using the word "fact" because your credibility today is just atrocious.
 
JoeMorgue said:
- Most Sanders supporters will not vote for another candidate, only Sanders
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And what's that got to do with me?


Most Americans will not vote for a socialists.
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Then I'll ask you the same question: x% claim they refuse to vote for a socialist, yet >(100-x)% prefer Sanders over Trump, despite the fact that Sanders self advertises as a socialist.

Why the discrepancy?
 
JoeMorgue said:
And this is the game. Ignore "The polls" when the say Sanders is losing, treat them like gospel when he is winning.
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That most certainly is not the game, quit lying about it.

Show me the polls where Sanders is losing. Only when you have done that is the argument actually the way you've advertised it. Note: I'm not asking for secondary or tertiary polls of some other factor like socialism.

Just show me the polls where Sanders is losing to Trump.

And a general consensus, not just cherry picked ones.

I don't think you can, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop lying about it.
 
JoeMorgue said:
I didn't hear one peep from the Sanders brigade for the months and months of early campaigning where Sanders was a distant third in the single digits. And if the momentum swings back to Biden or Warren or this new guy named "Obock Barama" who looks like Barack Obama wearing a pair of Groucho Marx glasses and a wig in the upcoming weeks the polls will stop mattering again.
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You didn't hear one peep then because we didn't have to put up with all the Chicken Littles that are freaking out over the possibility of Sanders winning the nomination. :rolleyes:

At least try to be consistent and argue in good faith, please.
 
d4m10n said:
As I said upthread, we've yet to see "an oppo blitz from the right" going after Sanders for his various flirtations with Marxist regimes. People haven't yet heard of Sanders praise for the Sandinistas or his attendance at Daniel Ortega's inauguration. Swing voters have yet to ask themselves why Sanders invited a Soviet spy to meet with him in 1983, or why he spent his honeymoon in the Soviet Union.

I think he'll eventually come up with good answers for all of these questions, but let's not pretend this won't hurt him with the voters who unfondly remember the Cold War.
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Fine, just stop pretending that you have me at an advantage because I can not produce evidence that Sanders can withstand the GOP attacks. You have no evidence he will crumble; we are equally ignorant in speculating the future.

My point, however, is that if this race comes down to the label of socialism (as some anti-Sanders people pretend it will), it is worth pointing out (as I did) that it clearly hasn't hurt Sanders even when he advertises himself as a socialist. So don't give me that crap about the socialism label definitely hurting him--That is far from a given.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Yeah just how my credibility with the Trumpers goes down every time I say anything bad about Trump. Funny how that works.
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Funny how it works?????

Sometimes you are illegitimately accused of credibility issues, therefore we can assume that all credibility accusations of you are illegitimate???

No, that's not how it works at all. Right now, you have a legitimate credibility issue in this thread. Period.
 
Cabbage said:
And what's that got to do with me?





Then I'll ask you the same question: x% claim they refuse to vote for a socialist, yet >(100-x)% prefer Sanders over Trump, despite the fact that Sanders self advertises as a socialist.

Why the discrepancy?
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I provided you with some evidence earlier which you "skimmed".

Yale professors conduct survey of 40,000 likely voters and conclude that the polls showing Sanders tied with- or defeating- Trump underestimate the impact Sanders' candidacy will have on motivating moderate undecideds, and Right leaning moderates to vote for Trump- while at the same time they rely on an expectation of youth turnout that is wildly unprecedented.


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...sanders-electability-president-moderates-data
 
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Cabbage said:
You didn't hear one peep then because we didn't have to put up with all the Chicken Littles that are freaking out over the possibility of Sanders winning the nomination. :rolleyes:

At least try to be consistent and argue in good faith, please.
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Speaking of lying, they're freaking out over the possibility of Trump winning, not Sanders.
 
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