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2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker Part III

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Some people on Twitter are saying that Joe Biden will be our next President if he gets all the way to being elected as President.
 
Tom Steyer has officially suspended his campaign, saying that "Honestly, I can't see a path where I can win the presidency."

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/south-carolina-primary-results-2020/index.html

I can't say I'm sorry. He's a good guy, but... inexperienced, to put it nicely. I'd take Buttigieg over him for likely effectiveness. Having his heart in the right place is great, though. Also, hopefully he puts much of the money that he would have spent on himself into more down-ballot races, though.

There's also the maybe slightly selfish thing about preferring that he doesn't need to divest from his wealth when he's helped the Democratic Party as much as he has financially.
 
I always try to remember a great debate line or moment from candidates as they drop out.

Struggling to recall any of Steyer's.
 
I can't say I'm sorry. He's a good guy, but... inexperienced, to put it nicely. I'd take Buttigieg over him for likely effectiveness. Having his heart in the right place is great, though. Also, hopefully he puts much of the money that he would have spent on himself into more down-ballot races, though.

There's also the maybe slightly selfish thing about preferring that he doesn't need to divest from his wealth when he's helped the Democratic Party as much as he has financially.

Where would the progressive party be, without the largesse of wealthy capitalists?
 
Where would the progressive party be, without the largesse of wealthy capitalists?

You say that like progressives are supposed to hate capitalism or wealthy people. Generally speaking, progressives like capitalism quite a bit, though. It's just that much of their liking for it isn't blind. Going further, as someone who very likely counts as a progressive, I value the economy in pretty much the same way I value money. It's a means to an end, but having more and more means little if it's not being used to make things better. When more and more and more of the financial pie gets concentrated at the very top, as inevitably happens under capitalism when not counterbalanced with something like very high top end taxes that get diverted into programs that allow less fortunate people to have a fairer shot of doing well, it can actually make things worse for society. And has. Over and over.

Or, that progressives aren't cynically allowed to be appreciative of the wealthy capitalists that contribute to actually counterbalancing to some extent the ones that are outright working to corrupt and undermine the government, while still greatly preferring for big money of all kinds to be vastly more restricted and less influential.

Either way, what I desire is for the happiest, healthiest, most sustainable society possible. The specific means to get there are less important, so long as the means don't thoroughly undermine the goal, at least.
 
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Biden's firewall appears to have saved him. He gets his first-ever presidential primary victory, and is probably the candidate best positioned to take on Bernie at this point. Warren, Buttigieg and Klobuchar will last to Tuesday, but there's really no point. Bloomberg? Let's see what he can do in the ST states, but to have Biden win and win big was the worst possible outcome for him today.
 
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Biden's firewall appears to have saved him. He gets his first-ever presidential primary victory, and is probably the candidate best positioned to take on Bernie at this point. Warren, Buttigieg and Klobuchar will probably last to Tuesday, but there's really no point. Bloomberg? Let's see what he can do in the ST states, but to have Biden win and win big was probably the worst possible outcome for him today.

Yeah, if Bloomberg gets something like 10-15% of the vote in the ST elections, it will be a disaster for him, but also a potential spoiler for Biden, and presumably anyone who wants to stop Sanders.
 
The difference is I recognize my view as an opinion and am not nearly so dogmatic with mine as you are yours.

What makes you think I don't know the difference between opinion and fact?

Obviously it's opinion since the massive attacks against Sanders have yet to occur.

You seem to be of the opinion no need to bother with that certain future the election will take.
 
That argument is true of every candidate.

If the purpose is to beat Trump then polls are literally the best measure we have. They are not perfect but are more accurate measure than the links you provided. You could also show links of approval for M4A and $15 minimum wage and say that shows Sanders is electable. But all those are not as good a measure as actual polls.
Of course it's true for all the candidates. The idea is not to nominate someone as vulnerable as Sanders.

I'm not happy with a potential Biden win either. He's as vulnerable as Sanders.

The polls are not the best measure for the primary at this time, let alone the general.
 
What makes you think I don't know the difference between opinion and fact?


Because you state an opinion as if it's a fact when you say, "This is why Sanders cannot win".

Obviously it's opinion since the massive attacks against Sanders have yet to occur.


Then you should state it as an opinion. A suggestion: "This is why I think Sanders cannot win".

See how it works?

You seem to be of the opinion no need to bother with that certain future the election will take.


What certain future? The "certain future" that Sanders will lose? Again, you confuse fact and opinion.
 
That massive attacks on Sanders will happen if he's the nominee really is something of a certain future.


If that's what she meant then she should explain what she bases "You seem to be of the opinion no need to bother with that certain future the election will take" on.

Seems to me she's being awfully presumptuous.
 
If that's what she meant then she should explain what she bases "You seem to be of the opinion no need to bother with that certain future the election will take" on.

Seems to me she's being awfully presumptuous.

Hmm?

Alright. Let's break the general conversation going on down a little more.

Non-Bernie supporter - We have distinct concerns about whether Bernie can actually win, given various things. For Skeptic Ginger, specifically, she's expressing strong concern about how well the GOP's attacks on Bernie (and Biden!) in the general election will affect things, given how much solid material the GOP has to work with (for them).

Bernie supporter - Look at the current match-up polls! Bernie can win!

Skeptic Ginger - Those current match-up polls do not include the certain future event of the GOP unleashing a veritable flood of attacks on Bernie (which they're pointedly and intentionally withholding to a trickle now, unlike the attacks on Biden), attacks that will be more effective because they're based in reality, therefore, they're poor evidence that Bernie can win.

Bickering occurs between you two.

That specific statement in question is fairly certainly a result of her feelings like you are either not really grasping or not really taking into account the point that, not only will the GOP's attacks on Bernie be likely to be diverse and based in reality, amplifying their effectiveness much more than they would be effective on, well... Steyer, since she probably favored him in part because she considered him to be much less susceptible to such. Again, the certain future in that post was that Bernie is going to be attacked and those attacks could easily drop Bernie's numbers significantly... and, to add to that for why it matters more than for the rest, he is likely more vulnerable to those attacks than most of the others. That's bearing in mind that it's not even close to just socialism stuff, for that matter. There's the stuff like "Bernie's been on the right side of every issue all along!" being not as true as the people claiming it wish. In the last debate, I seem to recall him outright admitting such, incidentally. There's plenty more, as has been noted, but... there's a whole bunch of reasons why people vote for a Presidential candidate. Bernie's appeal is more emotional and idealistic, rather than pragmatic. He's selling big hope and change, albeit less explicitly than Obama (and without an actually viable way to get it to happen, unlike Warren). To pose a question to you, then, what happens to all those enticed voters if the relentless attacks on his perceived ability to bring that hope and change and be that great figure that he's being advertised as are poignant and reality-based? After all, the focus of such will be more to get people outside of Trump's base not to vote, rather than to get them to vote for Trump.

To be further clear, personally, I think that she's overemphasizing the effectiveness and length of the effect of the attacks, as well as minimizing how meaningful the current polls are a little too much, but... I also think that she's right to be concerned.
 
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Hmm?

Alright. Let's break the general conversation going on down a little more.

Non-Bernie supporter - We have distinct concerns about whether Bernie can actually win, given various things. For Skeptic Ginger, specifically, she's expressing strong concern about how well the GOP's attacks on Bernie (and Biden!) in the general election will affect things, given how much solid material the GOP has to work with (for them).

Bernie supporter - Look at the current match-up polls! Bernie can win!

Skeptic Ginger - Those current match-up polls do not include the certain future event of the GOP unleashing a veritable flood of attacks on Bernie (which they're pointedly and intentionally withholding to a trickle now, unlike the attacks on Biden), attacks that will be more effective because they're based in reality, therefore, they're poor evidence that Bernie can win.

Bickering occurs between you two.

That specific statement in question is fairly certainly a result of her feelings like you are either not really grasping or not really taking into account the point that, not only will the GOP's attacks on Bernie be likely to be diverse and based in reality, amplifying their effectiveness much more than they would be effective on, well... Steyer, since she probably favored him in part because she considered him to be much less susceptible to such. Again, the certain future in that post was that Bernie is going to be attacked and those attacks could easily drop Bernie's numbers significantly... and, to add to that for why it matters more than for the rest, he is likely more vulnerable to those attacks than most of the others. That's bearing in mind that it's not even close to just socialism stuff, for that matter. There's the stuff like "Bernie's been on the right side of every issue all along!" being not as true as the people claiming it wish. In the last debate, I seem to recall him outright admitting such, incidentally. There's plenty more, as has been noted, but... there's a whole bunch of reasons why people vote for a Presidential candidate. Bernie's appeal is more emotional and idealistic, rather than pragmatic. He's selling big hope and change, albeit less explicitly than Obama (and without an actually viable way to get it to happen, unlike Warren). To pose a question to you, then, what happens to all those enticed voters if the relentless attacks on his perceived ability to bring that hope and change and be that great figure that he's being advertised as are poignant and reality-based? After all, the focus of such will be more to get people outside of Trump's base not to vote, rather than to get them to vote for Trump.

To be further clear, personally, I think that she's overemphasizing the effectiveness and length of the effect of the attacks, as well as minimizing how meaningful the current polls are a little too much, but... I also think that she's right to be concerned.



Of course I am concerned about the effect of future GOP attacks against Bernie or whoever the nominee is, and I appreciate the fact that many think Bernie is particularly vulnerable to such attacks. I disagree, but I respect the opinions of others. Have I ever said that I was not concerned? I don't recall saying that, and it would not be in my nature to say it.

What really grinds my gears concerning Skeptic Ginger's approach (and the approach of some others) is what I am hearing is "You don't agree with me therefore you aren't concerned enough about Sanders' vulnerability", which is just so goddamned condescending.

Just what the hell do I need to do to convince her and any other anti-Sanders people that I am taking 2020 seriously? Drop my support of Sanders? No. Not gonna happen. I am not asking her to support Sanders, she can make her own decision on who to support; it is my impression that she refuses to give me and other Sanders supporters the same respect of making our own decision. And I do not appreciate that at all.
 
Alright. Let's break the general conversation going on down a little more.

Non-Bernie supporter - [53 words]

Bernie supporter - [10 words]

Skeptic Ginger - [60 words]
Giving one side of an argument less than 10% of the consideration is not "breaking it down."
 
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