2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker Part III

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I look forward to all the people who said we must defeat Trump at all costs getting on the Bernie train.
 
Cabbage said:
:rolleyes: I was accused of a straw man, I point out it wasn't a straw man, and now you're giving me this?
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Then lets review. You said -

Cabbage said:
I agree with that, my complaint is that many posters proffer the argument that once the GOP begins their smear campaign, Sanders will automatically lose to Trump. It's inconsistent to reject polls and yet accept this pure speculative reasoning about future events.
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Okay. dudalb is one poster (ETA: much as even his position isn't really that "once the GOP begins their smear campaign," so much as a more general certainty that Bernie will lose because of "moderates" not voting for him). Who are the rest of these many posters that we keep hearing about?

Rather, there's been quite the trend of various posters who have raised one concern or another and been attacked with, for example, this hyperbolic complaint about the concern and been forced to clarify that no, they weren't saying the thing that you're trying to complain about. It's annoying. Especially when it's been repeated as many times as it has been.
 
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Suddenly said:
As opposed to "economically irresponsible?"

How is that any sort of helpful description. You aren't the Joker?
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To be short about it, I tend to think that there should be some kind of plan beyond endlessly rising debt to make sure that government expenses are paid for. Warren's wealth tax to fund lots of effective investment into future prosperity is a good example of an all around responsible fiscal approach. The repeated Republican tax cuts for the rich on false premises combined with cuts in investment into the future and increased military spending and their refusal to allow money generating parts of the government like the park system run during government shutdowns that they cause are pretty clear examples of financial irresponsibility.
 
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Cabbage said:
I get a distinct impression that people like Skeptic Ginger and Aridas think I and others are dismissing their concerns simply because I do not agree with them. Dig this:

It's entirely consistent that I hear and appreciate your concerns and I still think you are wrong.

It really is that simple. Get over it.
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To be clear, it's entirely fine to think that the concerns are wrong or overemphasized. It's how you (and some of the other Bernie supporters) handled that disagreement, far more than the disagreement itself, that gets quite irksome and, at times, sure looks like unfounded and fallacious dismissal.
 
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I'm terrified about Bernie. I think he'll lose the General Election. I hope not. But I think it is a legitimate concern. That doesn't mean some other Democrat would win. I hate the fact there wasn't a younger moderate to liberal candidate who could capture the imagination of the public.

But hey, I was wrong about Trump. I never thought someone so corrupt, moronic and batcrap crazy could capture the GOP nomination.

Maybe Bernie can pull it off. I'm very very skeptical though.
 
Aridas said:
Then lets review. You said -



Okay. dudalb is one poster. Who are the rest of these many posters that we keep hearing about? I can think of one other, to note. Only one.

Rather, there's been quite the trend of various posters who have raised one concern or another and been attacked with, for example, this hyperbolic complaint about the concern and been forced to clarify that no, they weren't saying the thing that you're trying to complain about. It's annoying. Especially when it's been repeated as many times as it has been.
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dudalb has been particularly vocal about it. If he is one of only two that you can think of, fair enough; just don't pretend it doesn't exist, nor expect me to pretend it doesn't exist.

I, too, find it annoying to be accused of a straw man when I post a response to an argument that is actually being made--If not by many, then by some. That does not imply that I think everyone in the anti-Sanders camp makes the same argument. You challenge me to quote people making the same comments dudalb makes. In turn, I challenge you to quote me simply dismissing other people's concerns about Sanders (and disagreement does not indicate dismissal, you know).
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Because?

Not all of us believe Bernie is a sure bet.
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And many of us realize no one is a sure bet. My opinion is that Bernie is the surest bet we've got. I know you disagree. That does not make me wrong. That does not make you wrong, either.
 
acbytesla said:
I'm terrified about Bernie. I think he'll lose the General Election. I hope not. But I think it is a legitimate concern. That doesn't mean some other Democrat would win. I hate the fact there wasn't a younger moderate to liberal candidate who could capture the imagination of the public.

But hey, I was wrong about Trump. I never thought someone so corrupt, moronic and batcrap crazy could capture the GOP nomination.

Maybe Bernie can pull it off. I'm very very skeptical though.
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We weren't wrong about Trump. We were wrong about Russian interference and Comey's last minute incompetence. How was that predictable just like how was it predictable Obama would make the mistake of letting McConnell bully him into not disclosing the Russian interference?
 
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Aridas said:
To be clear, it's entirely fine to think that the concerns are wrong or overemphasized. It's how you (and some of the other Bernie supporters) handled that disagreement, far more than the disagreement itself, that gets quite irksome and, at times, sure looks like unfounded and fallacious dismissal.
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Do you have an example?

And no, my responses to dudalb do not qualify as an example.

And let me be clear: I respect that some are concerned with running a socialist. What many struggle to understand is that many of us are concerned with running a moderate. The establishment candidate lost in 2016. Don't dismiss our support for Sanders as being too risky in the era of Trump: I consider running another establishment, lukewarm, moderate candidate to be the true risk. I want to get rid of Trump every bit as much as you do. I simply think, considering the anti-establishment zeitgeist, that Sanders is the safest bet we got.

You're not gonna change my mind on that. I don't expect to change yours, either. But don't try painting me as being reckless with my support for Sanders in the era of Trump (I'm not saying you are painting me that way, but I think many (not just on this board) do feel that way about Sanders and his supporters).
 
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Cabbage said:
And many of us realize no one is a sure bet. My opinion is that Bernie is the surest bet we've got. I know you disagree. That does not make me wrong. That does not make you wrong, either.
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I'm not the only one that disagrees.

Cabbage said:
I get a distinct impression that people like Skeptic Ginger and Aridas think I and others are dismissing their concerns simply because I do not agree with them. Dig this:

It's entirely consistent that I hear and appreciate your concerns and I still think you are wrong.

It really is that simple. Get over it.
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And we think, or at least I do, that you are wrong and it has nothing to do with "dismissing your concerns".

Cabbage said:
I just double checked and.......no you didn't.

Again, I ask, please quote me where I said that. Do it explicitly in your response to this post. Do not just hand wave it away and say you already provided the quote because....guess what?....you did not.
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Cabbage said:
I agree with that, my complaint is that many posters proffer the argument that once the GOP begins their smear campaign, Sanders will automatically lose to Trump. It's inconsistent to reject polls and yet accept this pure speculative reasoning about future events.
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To which I said:
And "pure speculative reasoning" applies to you equally if you want to go that route. You are speculating the polls won't change just as much as others speculate they will. You ignore the evidence of how the public still has disdain for socialism, while acting like the polls are evidence of the future when you don't know that.
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How is it you think you didn't say what I quoted you saying?
 
The_Animus said:
Because the available evidence, which admittedly can change as the election is still far out, says that Bernie is our best bet at beating at trump
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The evidence you are looking at might say that. There is different evidence I am looking at that suggests otherwise.
 
Aridas said:
Then lets review. You said -



Okay. dudalb is one poster (ETA: much as even his position isn't really that "once the GOP begins their smear campaign," so much as a more general certainty that Bernie will lose because of "moderates" not voting for him). Who are the rest of these many posters that we keep hearing about?

Rather, there's been quite the trend of various posters who have raised one concern or another and been attacked with, for example, this hyperbolic complaint about the concern and been forced to clarify that no, they weren't saying the thing that you're trying to complain about. It's annoying. Especially when it's been repeated as many times as it has been.
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And Aridas: Most of my interaction regarding Sanders the past couple of days have been with Skeptic Ginger, who said:

Skeptic Ginger said:
Puhleese.

I was responding to this:
Are those polls before the GOP campaigns against Sanders or not??????

That's a fact. If you think that won't change the voter sentiment about Sanders you have you head in the sand.
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I don't know if she is the "one other" poster you are referring to, but there you go--I have my head in the sand simply because I do not agree with her :rolleyes:. I'm not imagining this attitude against Sanders; I'm not presenting a straw man--It really does exist.

And regarding moderates not voting for Sanders, I did see this:

#NevadaCaucuses Entry Polls, Among moderate votes:
Sanders 23%
Biden 22%
Buttigieg 20%
Klobuchar 14%

MSNBC
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https://twitter.com/ppollingnumbers/status/1231316660021342208?s=21

It seems as though many moderates have no trouble at all voting for Sanders.
 
The_Animus said:
Because the available evidence, which admittedly can change as the election is still far out, says that Bernie is our best bet at beating at trump
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I can see the dismissive reaction of Bernie skeptics here if Bernie came in third in the last three primary states and somebody else polled higher nationwide against Trump.

Sanders supporter input would be trashed left and right if not outright ignored. We'd be in Tulsi Gabbard territory.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I'm not the only one that disagrees.
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.....(sigh)........That does not make me wrong, either.

And we think, or at least I do, that you are wrong and it has nothing to do with "dismissing your concerns".
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I know. And I disagree. And you think I have my head in the sand because of it. That sounds like you are dismissing my concerns. I get the feeling you are projecting your dismissal onto me for some reason; HINT: I am not the one being dismissive.



To which I said:How is it you think you didn't say what I quoted you saying?
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I've seen you quote many of my posts. In none of those that I saw did I say what you accuse me of saying. Why can't you simply repost the quote in question? Are you simply hiding behind this game because you can't produce?
 
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