2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker Part III

[Skeptic Ginger]

I agree with that, my complaint is that many posters proffer the argument that once the GOP begins their smear campaign, Sanders will automatically lose to Trump. It's inconsistent to reject polls and yet accept this pure speculative reasoning about future events.

Your hyperbole borders on a straw man. No one said "automatically lose". It's more like Sanders has a significant risk of losing and with how important it is to get Trump out, that's a risk some of us prefer not to take.

And "pure speculative reasoning" applies to you equally if you want to go that route. You are speculating the polls won't change just as much as others speculate they will. You ignore the evidence of how the public still has disdain for socialism, while acting like the polls are evidence of the future when you don't know that.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Clint Eastwood has called himself "social liberal, fiscal conservative". So I wonder why he hated Obama so much.

The social liberal who's upset at all the sensitivity of people and that men can't act like men, telling "jokes" and such...

 

[Suddenly]

The social liberal who's upset at all the sensitivity of people and that men can't act like men, telling "jokes" and such...

If someone says "social liberal economic conservative" there is about a 95% chance that what they mean by "social liberal" is that "cops shouldn't investigate violations or even enforce laws against public morality or traffic laws except against the poor and minorities because you have to keep an eye on those people."

 

[acbytesla]

Clint Eastwood has called himself "social liberal, fiscal conservative". So I wonder why he hated Obama so much.

I don't know how any self respecting "fiscal conservative" could be a Republican. The GOP hasn't been fiscally responsible since Nixon although there could be an argument for Daddy Bush.

Eastwood doesn't care if someone is gay, but whatever you do, don't tax him.

 

[Suddenly]

DNC: We need a way to shift the Overton window left so that we don't have to explain the difference between a liberal policy like the ACA and communism.

Bernie: FREE HEALTHCARE AND COLLEGE AND UNIONS ON CORPORATE BOARDS!!! (surges to lead in polls)

DNC: Stop that. Serious political people are trying to think. Maybe we should ask Bill Kristol or Rick Wilson. They are smart. Maybe they can help with this. We shouldn't be too proud to go outside the party.

BERNIE: I SAID FREE HEALTHCARE AND PONIES AND YOU WILL NEVER DIE!! (bigger lead)

DNC: Maybe we just need a billionaire New Yorker who doesn't tweet so much and cooks steak properly. Not this socialist goon. I mean, he makes us look moderate, amirite?

BERNIE: I DONT WANT TO HAVE TO BREAK CHARACTER TO EXPLAIN THAT I AM YOUR OVERTON WINDOW UNICORN SENT FROM HEAVEN COME ON MAN!

DNC: Man that guy bugs me. Maybe we can work with Trump next term.

....

 

[Cabbage]

Your hyperbole borders on a straw man. No one said "automatically lose". It's more like Sanders has a significant risk of losing and with how important it is to get Trump out, that's a risk some of us prefer not to take.

Straw man? Hardly. Have a look:

What just happened just show how important it is that the Dems make removing Trump from office their first,and only, priority. All else is secondary.
If the Democrats nominate somebody who will hand Trump reelection on a silver platter..and I am looking at your, Bernie...they will be guilty of stupidity on a mounmentla level.

Note: Yes, he didn't literally say, "Automatically lose", however, it would require gymnastics to get any other interpretation from that quote.

And "pure speculative reasoning" applies to you equally if you want to go that route. You are speculating the polls won't change just as much as others speculate they will.

Now that is what you call a straw man. Where did I say such a thing? My challenge of your pure speculative reasoning does not imply I believe the polar opposite. It's possible to simply admit ignorance (I refer to my own) instead of being so damned sure of yourself as you seem to be.

You ignore the evidence of how the public still has disdain for socialism, while acting like the polls are evidence of the future when you don't know that.

I ignore the evidence of how the public disdains socialism because it is currently trumped by the fact that Sanders leads Trump in the polls--Why put your faith in polls of a side issue (socialism) and simply ignore polls of the primary issue (Trump vs Sanders)? Yes, these polls could change; this is universally true in every political situation (look at Biden's collapse). No, I don't think it's a given the polls will change.

I will say that I persist in these debates because I don't think it's me that is making the mistake. I think it's a mistake to pursue a moderate, establishment candidate because that ignores the current zeitgeist of antiestablishmentarianism. I'm comfortable with you thinking I am wrong, but at the same time don't expect me to not challenge you when you do claim I am wrong; I happen to think this is rather important.

 

[Sideroxylon]

I guess you guys aren’t ready for democratic socialism yet but your kids are going to love it.

 

[Tero]

Here we go socialism! Biden is toast.

 

[Aridas]

If someone says "social liberal economic conservative" there is about a 95% chance that what they mean by "social liberal" is that "cops shouldn't investigate violations or even enforce laws against public morality or traffic laws except against the poor and minorities because you have to keep an eye on those people."

Mmm. On those categories, I tend to describe myself as socially liberal, economically responsible. It's a slight difference, but also means that I oppose the Republican Party like crazy on those issues. Having double standards for justice is certainly not part of that, though.

Straw man? Hardly. Have a look:

It might be worth specifically pointing out that dudalb doesn't even remotely speak for most of us that have serious concerns about how things will go with a Bernie nomination and that it's unpleasant to feel like the Bernie supporters like you here are using dudalb as an excuse and foil to effectively dismiss the concerns that we've stated that *we* have with hyperbole about what we actually said.

Here we go socialism! Biden is toast.

Heh, if socialism didn't require Congress, there would be more of a chance of that.

 

[Cabbage]

It might be worth specifically pointing out that dudalb doesn't even remotely speak for most of us that have serious concerns about how things will go with a Bernie nomination and that it's unpleasant to feel like the Bernie supporters like you here are using dudalb as an excuse and foil to effectively dismiss the concerns that we've stated that *we* have with hyperbole about what we actually said.

I was accused of a straw man, I point out it wasn't a straw man, and now you're giving me this?

I respect your concerns, I haven't simply dismissed them, I am merely supporting my position. If you have a concern you'd like to bring up with me, just bring it up! But when I am addressing what dudalb specifically has said, don't act all offended when I'm not specifically addressing instead what you have in mind. Pointing out that I think one person is wrong with respect to Sanders does not imply I think everyone against Sanders is wrong; I'm not trying to lump you all together. Just say what's on your mind without getting all pissy about it. Don't expect any of my posts to cover how every single individual feels about Sanders.

 

[Suddenly]

Mmm. On those categories, I tend to describe myself as socially liberal, economically responsible. It's a slight difference, but also means that I oppose the Republican Party like crazy on those issues. Having double standards for justice is certainly not part of that, though.

As opposed to "economically irresponsible?"

How is that any sort of helpful description. You aren't the Joker?

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

It looks like Pete is signalling he is going full anti-Bernie at this point. A lot of people think the focus on M4A with Warren was what did her in, but even if he succeeds in beating Bernie with it (which seems like an already baked-in thing at this point, but is still something that divides the party), I suspect it would only help Biden or Bloomberg, like how Warren hitting Bloomberg helped Sanders.

 

[Suddenly]

One thing interesting about the results coming in so far is that in raw vote totals Sanders' lead over Biden grows from the first round to the final round.

Right now at 29% in, Sanders' lead grows by slightly more than 1100 votes during the caucus.

These things are weird, so not an exact science, but this indicates that maybe Sanders has broader appeal than the StopBernie crowd assumes. He's more people's fallback choice than is Biden.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

DNC: We need a way to shift the Overton window left so that we don't have to explain the difference between a liberal policy like the ACA and communism.

Bernie: FREE HEALTHCARE AND COLLEGE AND UNIONS ON CORPORATE BOARDS!!! (surges to lead in polls)

DNC: Stop that. Serious political people are trying to think. Maybe we should ask Bill Kristol or Rick Wilson. They are smart. Maybe they can help with this. We shouldn't be too proud to go outside the party.

BERNIE: I SAID FREE HEALTHCARE AND PONIES AND YOU WILL NEVER DIE!! (bigger lead)

DNC: Maybe we just need a billionaire New Yorker who doesn't tweet so much and cooks steak properly. Not this socialist goon. I mean, he makes us look moderate, amirite?

BERNIE: I DONT WANT TO HAVE TO BREAK CHARACTER TO EXPLAIN THAT I AM YOUR OVERTON WINDOW UNICORN SENT FROM HEAVEN COME ON MAN!

DNC: Man that guy bugs me. Maybe we can work with Trump next term.

....

Is this your personal fantasy?

 

[angrysoba]

One thing interesting about the results coming in so far is that in raw vote totals Sanders' lead over Biden grows from the first round to the final round.

Right now at 29% in, Sanders' lead grows by slightly more than 1100 votes during the caucus.

These things are weird, so not an exact science, but this indicates that maybe Sanders has broader appeal than the StopBernie crowd assumes. He's more people's fallback choice than is Biden.

Yeah, Sanders’ appeal is clearly broader than last time. The other Democrats relying on “pragmatism” (doing all they can not to frighten the horses) don’t inspire any enthusiasm at all.

 

[TragicMonkey]

One thing interesting about the results coming in so far is that in raw vote totals Sanders' lead over Biden grows from the first round to the final round.

Right now at 29% in, Sanders' lead grows by slightly more than 1100 votes during the caucus.

These things are weird, so not an exact science, but this indicates that maybe Sanders has broader appeal than the StopBernie crowd assumes. He's more people's fallback choice than is Biden.

Biden: "This is getting serious! I'm going to use my superpower! Bland Non-entity Power: Magnify!!!! Did it work? Am I interesting yet?"

Staffer: "Sir, you were a zero before, but now you can multiply that zero by a million!"

Biden: "Hooray!"

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

,,,

Now that is what you call a straw man. Where did I say such a thing? My challenge of your pure speculative reasoning does not imply I believe the polar opposite. It's possible to simply admit ignorance (I refer to my own) instead of being so damned sure of yourself as you seem to be.

I quoted you, that's where.

The rest is the same old argument.

 

[Suddenly]

Is this your personal fantasy?

No, according to a cnn link this is exactly what happened.

 

[Cabbage]

I quoted you, that'e where.

I just double checked and.......no you didn't.

Again, I ask, please quote me where I said that. Do it explicitly in your response to this post. Do not just hand wave it away and say you already provided the quote because....guess what?....you did not.

 

[Cabbage]

I get a distinct impression that people like Skeptic Ginger and Aridas think I and others are dismissing their concerns simply because I do not agree with them. Dig this:

It's entirely consistent that I hear and appreciate your concerns and I still think you are wrong.

It really is that simple. Get over it.