Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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Ziggurat said:
And we are under exactly the conditions where you might expect them to diverge: a politically contentious issue with strident activists who apply pressure to use preferred definitions.
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Fair point, but have said activists converged on a definition which isn't explicitly self-referential yet? (I hear dictionarists are uptight about that sort of thing.)
 
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Meadmaker said:
When I google the phrase "real man",
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Why would you do that? I haven't used the expression 'real man' as far as I am aware, so how is that relevant to what I am saying?

How do you expect to follow my (pretty straightforward) reasoning if you go off on tangents like this?
 
Robin said:
Why would you do that? I haven't used the expression 'real man' as far as I am aware, so how is that relevant to what I am saying?

How do you expect to follow my (pretty straightforward) reasoning if you go off on tangents like this?
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Well it seems I am not very good at following pretty straightforward reasoning. I keep thinking you must be getting at something, but it seems that I'm not very good at figuring out what it is, so I'll give up trying to figure out the import of any questions you have.

I'll continue to answer them, though, if you would like answers. I'll go back to your last one.

I doubt that any trans man is claiming to be biologically male, so when a trans man says "I am a man" and a biological male is told by someone "you are not a man" then they are presumably talking in the same sense, yes?
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The answer is no.
 
A man beat a transgender woman for using the correct bathroom -- the women's. Now he's guilty of a hate crime

CNN said:
An man who beat a transgender woman for using the women's restroom was found guilty of a hate crime.

Fred Constanza was convicted in an Oregon court for first-degree bias crime, second-degree assault and harassment for the August attack on Lauren Jackson, a transgender woman. Jackson was visiting Agate State Beach Park near Newport, Oregon, on the day of the attack. She stopped to use the women's restroom -- and that's when Costanza walked over 100 yards across the park to confront her, multiple witnesses told Newport police.

Costanza hit Jackson 10 times, police said. She told them he was holding her hair back to prevent her from escaping. Newport police found Jackson bleeding from her face with a broken jaw after Constanza had fled the scene. He was arrested later that day.

Constanza, 37, of Idaho entered a not-guilty plea in September. He remained jailed in Lincoln County, Oregon, until his January trial, the Oregonian reported. A week after his trial began on January 22, a jury found him guilty on three counts...
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https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/31/us/man-guilty-hate-crime-beat-trans-woman-restroom-trnd/index.html
 

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I thought the really telling bit was where the author collapses the ideas of sex and gender into a sort of conceptual melting pot.

The last 50 years of science and scholarship have demonstrated that while gender is structured in many societies as a binary, it is not lived as binary. In fact, the determinations of gender, both social and biological, are extremely complex and fluid. To empower unaccountable sports bodies, advised by self-selected physicians, to exclude some women on the basis of their personal perceptions of womanhood is both wrong-headed and unfair.
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Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk
 
d4m10n said:
I thought the really telling bit was where the author collapses the ideas of sex and gender into a sort of conceptual melting pot.
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"biological gender". The original point of introducing gender as separate from sex was that gender wasn't supposed to be biological even though sex was. Now sex is to be completely replaced by gender, which can be either social or biological, but is fluid in both cases. The efforts to create newspeak continue apace.
 
d4m10n said:
Op-Ed in [emoji288]&[emoji399]

https://twitter.com/globeandmail/status/1226809310346268673
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The problem - as always - comes back to the level playing field.

Women have been denied that for all human history, and the gender wage gap reveals it's still happening in 2019, when the idea of gender can't be discussed outside of allowing trans women all the rights of women, as well as the biological advantage being born a bloke confers by way of strength, bone structure and muscle mass.

The most important part of the Op-Ed seems to be the bit under the photo, which says:

Negesa, who identifies as female and was born with external female genitalia, but also with internal male genitalia, had surgery to lower her male levels of testosterone so that she could continue to compete. Her years since the surgery have been a struggle.
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Case closed for me - it is blindingly obvious she had a natural advantage over women who don't have testicles, and since most chicks wouldn't want to grow a pair to compete, even if they were able to, people like Semenya and Negesa aren't competitive any more.

Boo - bloody - hoo.

Half a dozen women are harmed by the decision, 3.5 billion are empowered.
 
The Atheist said:
The problem - as always - comes back to the level playing field.
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Agreed. If you're going to have a separate league for adults who have never experienced the advantaging effects of endogenous testosterone, you have to have some way of determining who gets to play in that league. The author of the Globe and Mail piece basically sidesteps this problem (so far as I can tell) in favor of subjective personal identity.
 
Belz... said:
By the love of ****, please get informed on that "gap" rather than just blindly repeating it.
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Heck, you really do have an allergy to facts, don't you?

Please feel free to start a thread on "The Gender Wage Gap is a Myth" and I'll be in it with boots on.
 
Tsukasa Buddha said:
Connecticut allowing trans girls to compete without restriction in school sports is letting the ADF look reasonable. This is going to be a successful wedge issue for conservatives.
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It already is.

I think it gave us President Trump. No, nobody ever says, "I'm voting for Trump because he will kick the boys off the girls' track team." but I remember listening to Hugh Hewitt (one of the more reasonable right wing radio yappers) on November 8, 2016 exhorting people to get out and vote, especially in swing states. Among the lines in his litany of reasons to make sure to get to the polls was, "Come on, North Carolina! Are you going to let the NCAA tell you what to do!"

It was a close election. This is the sort of issue that makes 1% of the people say, "You've got to be kidding me."
 
You know, I'm back on the position that socially transitioned girls are girls and should be free to compete. A girl is a girl, and they are girl. Some girls will have natural athletic advantages than others for various reasons. This just so happens to be theirs.
 
BobTheCoward said:
You know, I'm back on the position that socially transitioned girls are girls and should be free to compete. A girl is a girl, and they are girl. Some girls will have natural athletic advantages than others for various reasons. This just so happens to be theirs.
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Should boys also be allowed to compete?
 
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