Cont: House Impeachment Inquiry - part 3

[Skeptic Ginger]

What limit? Trump's lawyers have literally argued that murder is fine if the President does it. Trump trying to... "dismiss" Congress would not be off the table. If even just the Congresscritters who don't support him are imprisoned and thus prevented from voting, it's pretty much game over for the US without violence.....

That's a good example. He's darn close to that now with his ExOrs.

 

[theprestige]

I didn't know Pence was running for the presidency.

In fact, is it even official he's a vice presidential candidate this time?

I was assuming the scenario where the Senate votes to remove, during Trump's current term. This would make Pence president.

But other scenarios are similar. Elections happen. Trump isn't elected. He refuses to step down. The President-elect takes office. The Secret Service evicts the trespasser. Still not rocket surgery.

 

[Giordano]

Happens how, exactly?

How does President Trump abolish term limits? He can't do it through an executive order. He can't do it by signing a bill into law (because Congress can't actually pass such a bill).

The best he could possibly do, to get elected to a third term, would be to campaign for a third term in spite of his ineligibility to serve a third term. He might get as far as having his name on ballots in some states, even though he's not eligible. Between that and write-ins... What? Suddenly he's abolished term limits?

---

Or he'd just refuse to step down, but that wouldn't make him a third-term president. That would just make him a non-president trespassing in the White House until the Secret Service removes him an hour later.

This has been discussed in the Forum before. Who on earth in the Secret Service has the authority to march Trump put of the White House? Do you think that some entry-level 20 year-old agent getting paid ~$40,000 a year will do it on their own authority? Or is one of their higher bosses going to order it if Trump resists and his supporters in Congress refuse to do anything official or even agree with him? Can a court order it? What if one does and the President ignores that? Does the Secret Service accept the President's authority or the court's, remembering that the Secret Service is part of the Executive branch?

The last few years have shown all too well that the legality and integrity of the USA government rests mostly on it being run by men and women who willing adhere to morality, precedents, the law, and to the principles of the Constitution. When powerful individuals ignore these principles, and are supported by their lackeys, virtually anything can happen.

 

[Distracted1]

I was assuming the scenario where the Senate votes to remove, during Trump's current term. This would make Pence president.

But other scenarios are similar. Elections happen. Trump isn't elected. He refuses to step down. The President-elect takes office. The Secret Service evicts the trespasser. Still not rocket surgery.

What would be the proper response of a sitting second term President who has credible evidence that the election that just occurred was widely interfered with?

The proper thing to do in that instance would be to remain in position until an inquiry could determine the legitimacy of the election, no?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

There's a big difference between an attorney for the defense and an attorney in an impeachment. ....

But Dershy may not see it that way. In addition, if he sees himself as an expert witness, he would believe his job would be to give a supporting case.




Oh my gawd, the Democrats are screwing up in their usual manner.

They had a chance to point out again that the prosecutor Biden got fired was holding up the investigation of Burisma's president/CEO, not investigating Burisma.

But noooo, they have to give the answer that it's not relevant.

In the meantime the Trumpers got in all the crap they wanted to about corrupt Joe Biden.

The Democrats have no concept they can be as right as rain and it doesn't matter. Impression matters.

 

[plague311]

I was assuming the scenario where the Senate votes to remove, during Trump's current term. This would make Pence president.

But other scenarios are similar. Elections happen. Trump isn't elected. He refuses to step down. The President-elect takes office. The Secret Service evicts the trespasser. Still not rocket surgery.

Evidence?!?!?!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Aaaaand the did it again. The House attorney just played half dozen clips of Trump making the case for getting info on competitors from foreign government and then he called for Bolton's testimony.

I assume he meant it to show Trump had a pattern of asking foreign governments to investigate his rivals. Instead it came across as Trump having a right to ask Zelensky to investigate Biden.

 

[theprestige]

What would be the proper response of a sitting second term President who has credible evidence that the election that just occurred was widely interfered with?

The proper thing to do in that instance would be to remain in position until an inquiry could determine the legitimacy of the election, no?

Maybe? Obama stepped down, didn't he?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

President Pence takes office. The Secret Service evicts Trump from the premises. It's not rocket surgery.

As if Pence, one of Trump's most dedicated worshipers, would do this.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

So has Rand Paul leaked this name? Is it the guy the GOP already accused? Is it the guy they recently sent packing from the WH?

You can find the name, which I think was leaked by Nunes, which is very likely the Whistleblower
Plenty of right-wing sites have posted it by now.
And no, it's not the guy who supposedly lost his phone to a Russian honey trap.

 

[plague311]

A great question was just asked. If Trump remains in office what signal does it send to other countries intent on interfering on our elections (not verbatim). The House Managers had a good answer, I'd suggest watching it.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Maybe? Obama stepped down, didn't he?

That's what the Deep State wants you to think.

 

[Paul2]

I'm with you up until the very last sentence.

Impeachment and removal is not a question of justice. It's a question of national interest. Justice would be sentencing someone to prison after their conviction in a criminal trial. Justice would be awarding monetary damages after finding liability in a civil trial.

There is, in principle, a criminal process that would result in justice for whatever crimes a president may have committed. But impeachment is not that process. Impeachment is a process for asking the question "criminality established, and questions of justice aside, does it make sense to remove the president from office?"

Eh, I think you're right. That last sentence should be replaced with something I'll have to think about.

 

[theprestige]

This has been discussed in the Forum before. Who on earth in the Secret Service has the authority to march Trump put of the White House?

My understanding is that everyone in the White House security detail is a special agent of the US government. Pretty much all of them have the authority to evict trespassers.

Do you think that some entry-level 20 year-old agent getting paid ~$40,000 a year will do it on their own authority?

I would hope so. But I doubt any entry-level agents are being assigned to White House security.

Or is one of their higher bosses going to order it if Trump resists and his supporters in Congress refuse to do anything official or even agree with him?

The Secret Service doesn't depend on Congress, for authority to evict trespassers.

Can a court order it?

Yes, of course. The courts can rule on a legal or constitutional question of who is president.

What if one does and the President ignores that?

Then I guess the President lives with a squatter bumbling around the White House.

Does the Secret Service accept the President's authority or the court's, remembering that the Secret Service is part of the Executive branch?

I assume the Secret Service would accept the President's authority. And that he would fire anyone on the detail who refused to comply with the court's order.

The last few years have shown all too well that the legality and integrity of the USA government rests mostly on it being run by men and women who willing adhere to morality, precedents, the law, and to the principles of the Constitution. When powerful individuals ignore these principles, and are supported by their lackeys, virtually anything can happen.

You're imagining a scenario where the Secret Service ignores elections, ignores court orders, ignores the orders of their new commander in chief, all to keep Trump in office past his term. I don't think there's anything in the last few years that has shown us that this is a rational concern.

 

[Paul2]

So the defense should do what? Offer a worse defense?

A more proper one, regardless of whether it is better or worse. More later.

 

[theprestige]

Evidence?!?!?!

Mu.

 

[Distracted1]

Maybe? Obama stepped down, didn't he?

It is certainly a credible pathway to remaining in office beyond the point at which the term limit has been reached.

The beauty of it is that it does not even matter which "side" the tampering could be construed as favoring- only that enough evidence could be presented to cast doubt on the legitimacy of the result.

This would certainly give the Secret Service pause in their mission to remove the occupant of the White House, no?

 

[theprestige]

It is certainly a credible pathway to remaining in office beyond the point at which the term limit has been reached.

The beauty of it is that it does not even matter which "side" the tampering could be construed as favoring- only that enough evidence could be presented to cast doubt on the legitimacy of the result.

This would certainly give the Secret Service pause in their mission to remove the occupant of the White House, no?

It might. Would you want them to pause?

 

[Cain]

As if Pence, one of Trump's most dedicated worshipers, would do this.

These guys are bootlickers, not worshipers. They're the people who are always coming at their boss with a compliment, or laughing uncontrollably at mildly humorous observations -- "good one!" -- at least when someone's above them in the corporate hierarchy. As soon as that boss gets demoted or tossed, he's treated with the utmost contempt.

Politicians like Pence, Pompeo, Graham know Trump all too well. Cruz even infamously said something to the effect (back when the two were buddy-buddy) that he's just waiting for the Orange One to self-immolate by making an unconscionably stupid remark. Cruz won Iowa, and the nastiness started to come out. Trump wins, and now Ted bends the knee.

If anything, the people who actually believe in Trump are members of his crime family. Michael "I'll Take a Bullet for You" Cohen, or even Lev "can I get a picture with you" Parnas. They felt abandoned and turned on their master. They're also weasels, but less experienced and more naive. Ken White has said a lot of criminals and gangsters get taken down when the prosecutors play a phone call for the mistress proving her "man" was never going to leave his wife.

Plenty of people go to church without believing. They're handing out business cards, shaking hands.

 

[Distracted1]

It might. Would you want them to pause?

I might, actually.
With enough evidence presented, I would have to choose between possibly sitting someone not elected or invalidating the election itself.

Kind of makes it the perfect con for a President who doesn't wish to leave, doesn't it?
And the groundwork for it is already pretty firmly rooted.