Cont: House Impeachment Inquiry - part 3

[Minoosh]

. . . however, that would be a pretty clear reason why the GOP has changed from "he didn't do it" to "it's not a crime". Even if Bolton confirms everything with rock solid evidence the GOP will just pivot and walk away.

I kind of think this too, but maybe the sand shifting under their feet would throw a few senators a little. Not much. Note that Giuliani doesn't call Bolton a liar, but a back-stabber. If Bolton confirms that Trump held up military aid pending a Biden investigation, his defenders can just tweak their argument, if that. Aid was "paused," his lawyers seem to confirm, but Ukraine supposedly didn't even know that. The president was just genuinely concerned about corruption. Trump, or whoever is strategizing, seems very artful about redirecting their defense to accommodate additional revelations of fact, waving them away with "So what?"

 

[acbytesla]

DELETE

 

[Segnosaur]

I'm curious who do we think is telling the truth. Trump or Bolton? Pestige, Brooklyn, Meadmaker?

Bolton.

There you go. Everyone is lying but the super liar himself.

Umm... I think someone might be misinterpreting things.

He was asked "who is telling the Truth". To that he responded "Bolton".

That suggests the one who is lying is Trump.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I still don't get the Bolton thing. During the phone call, Trump said he needed an investigation in order to release the aid. Subsequent testimony by lots of people showed that he actually followed through and held up the aid.

Now Bolton says the same thing and the press calls it a bombshell and Trump et.al call him a traitor. I don't get it.

Maybe they've seen something else in themanuscript that is a much bigger deal.

Well, Trump hates it, so that's cool. Can't wait to hear more, in whatever forum, just to see Trump blow a gasket.

Is this a Poe?

 

[acbytesla]

Umm... I think someone might be misinterpreting things.

He was asked "who is telling the Truth". To that he responded "Bolton".

That suggests the one who is lying is Trump.

Fair enough. My mistake.

 

[theprestige]

Huh? I've heard Joe articulately as hell eviscerate Republicans and their hypocrisy. I think he is far more capable of doing this then Hillary was. But I could be wrong. It has happened before.

This reminds me of those "Tucker Carlson destroys..." YouTube videos. The Tucker fanboys see it. The Tucker haters don't see it, or see the opposite. Outside of Tucker's fandom, is the general public actually impressed by it? Probably not.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The excuses and straw-manning the GOP is doing with these questions is gag-worthy.

 

[lobosrul5]

My impression of Bolton is that he is a very intelligent, and extremely ideological, person.

He is not in the least partisan. Of course his ideology makes him align almost exclusively with Republicans, but I don't think he has an ounce of party loyalty. On a personal level, I cannot imaging him feeling anything but utter contempt for Trump. He generally likes Trump's policies.

Bolton is also something of an icon on right. Trump calling him a liar won't play well with some of Trump's biggest supporters in the "National Review" wing of the party, except it turns out that that wing feels the same way about Trump. They are aligned with Trump ideologically, but they hate him personally.

So I think Bolton is simply telling the truth, and he doesn't see it as stabbing anyone in the back. He's telling his story (for a profit) and if the truth ends up damaging someone, so be it. I don't think he feels any personal loyalty to Trump or the Republican Party.

Not is, was. He was an icon on the right. Except to the "never-trump" wing of the party, which is quite small.

What the right wing mouth piece is saying about him now: https://www.motherjones.com/impeachment/2020/01/fox-news-is-losing-its-mind-over-john-bolton/

ETA: and a lot of the "national review" wing don't really ideologically align with trump in 3 ways: running a huge deficit, non-free trade policies, dovish on going to war.

 

[acbytesla]

This reminds me of those "Tucker Carlson destroys..." YouTube videos. The Tucker fanboys see it. The Tucker haters don't see it, or see the opposite. Outside of Tucker's fandom, is the general public actually impressed by it? Probably not.

I understand. You think it is bias. That is reasonable. Biden is nowhere near being in a league with say Bill Clinton. I'm actually not a big fan of Biden. Still, Biden is a professional politician with decades of experience. He usually comes across as very likable.

I like Biden's chances against Trump's defense team who haven't impressed me. Their proposition is more than a challenge because they would just be fishing and trying to cast aspersions with unfounded inuendo. This would be the Senate. Really home turf for Biden having spent decades there. Is Dershowitz or Bondi or Starr really going to try and cut off the former Vice President when he's talking? And how's that going to look to the people at home?

 

[Segnosaur]

I like Biden's chances against Trump's defense team who haven't impressed me. Their proposition is more than a challenge because they would just be fishing and trying to cast aspersions with unfounded inuendo. This would be the Senate. Really home turf for Biden having spent decades there. Is Dershowitz or Bondi or Starr really going to try and cut off the former Vice President when he's talking? And how's that going to look to the people at home?

Would they even be able to cut him off? I seem to remember someone mentioning that questions get filtered through Judge Roberts. I'm not sure if the rules of the senate would even allow interruptions.

I still wouldn't want Biden to testify however. Even if he is capable enough to defend himself and/or make the defense team look silly, many people won't be watching the impeachment hearings live... they will get their sound-bites afterwards, and the right-wing media will probably be able to take stuff out of context to spin things in a way that makes him look bad.

 

[Galaxie]

We can only hope that the rats desert the sinking ship.

If I was one of the 23 republicans running for re-election this fall, I wouldn't want to see the billboards saying I was involved in a sham acquittal of Trump with no witnesses and no evidence in the trial.

Well you'd think that, but have you seen some of the GOP ads lately? They're doubling down on their Trump support.

 

[acbytesla]

Would they even be able to cut him off? I seem to remember someone mentioning that questions get filtered through Judge Roberts. I'm not sure if the rules of the senate would even allow interruptions.

I still wouldn't want Biden to testify however. Even if he is capable enough to defend himself and/or make the defense team look silly, many people won't be watching the impeachment hearings live... they will get their sound-bites afterwards, and the right-wing media will probably be able to take stuff out of context to spin things in a way that makes him look bad.

Maybe. And it also could be a campaign galvanizing event.

I've heard the accusations against Biden regarding Ukraine. They are pathetic nonsense and are easily explainable. I was a debater in high school and in sales for 30 years. It's easy to sell a good product or certain side of a debate. And it is a hell of a lot harder when your product is marginal or the facts are on the other side.

 

[plague311]

Would they even be able to cut him off? I seem to remember someone mentioning that questions get filtered through Judge Roberts. I'm not sure if the rules of the senate would even allow interruptions.

I still wouldn't want Biden to testify however. Even if he is capable enough to defend himself and/or make the defense team look silly, many people won't be watching the impeachment hearings live... they will get their sound-bites afterwards, and the right-wing media will probably be able to take stuff out of context to spin things in a way that makes him look bad.

No matter what Biden does they'll do that ****. Biden could save a kitten in a tree and the right would bitch about the leaves that fell off during his climbing it.

 

[theprestige]

I understand. You think it is bias.

Not exactly. I know there's inherent bias, and therefore I discount glowing "he destroyed them in conversation" reports from people who are clearly fans already. One red flag for me is the hyperbole. The other is the set-piece nature of the fantasy.

I'm interested in endorsements at the "Biden would probably handle himself pretty well, and it might even be embarrassing for the Republicans" end of the spectrum. Your endorsement is closer to the "Biden will dominate the room and school the Republicans in a gotcha moment like on TV" end of the spectrum.

Which is fine, give endorsements in whatever tone or idiom you like best. But when it's towards that end of the spectrum, I apply a Tucker Carlson conversion factor, to get better estimate of how well he'd actually do.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

If "we can't do x because Republicans will lie and spin it" is applied universally, then we should just pack up and accept defeat.

That's dancing to the tune they call.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

 

[JoeMorgue]

I've heard the accusations against Biden regarding Ukraine. They are pathetic nonsense and are easily explainable.

No matter what Biden does they'll do that ****. Biden could save a kitten in a tree and the right would bitch about the leaves that fell off during his climbing it.

And again even if Biden did absolutely everything wrong the right has accused him of, it doesn't make what Trump did okay.

It's like nested wrongness, Trump defense wouldn't even be right... if it was right.

 

[Cain]

Quick comments.

Biden Testifying
-- Biden can be a doddering fool. Hillary Clinton's much smarter, and her preparation is superior.

Bolton's Retirement(?) Plans
-- When he's not strangling hookers, he'll probably work for a think tank. Hoover's now headed by Rice. He can warmonger from sunny California.

"Backstabber"/Leftist
Trump just Tweeted that we'd be in World War VI if he kept Bolton on.

Bolton is definitely a vindictive SOB. I'm not inclined to trust him, but his testimony corroborates a mountain of evidence. If he's not telling the truth, the GOP could call him a liar. Now it seems they're accepting the notion of a quid pro quo -- investigate Biden for aid -- but saying it's not corrupt, or at least not illegal.

By admitting there was a quid pro quo, Republicans can maintain that Bolton's testimony will add nothing, therefore we shouldn't have witnesses. They can vote not guilty via Dershowitz's bogus arguments.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm just not getting what Bolton is going to prove happened that Trump hasn't already openly bragged about doing.

Trump admitted both the Quid-pro-quo and the obstruction. Neither of these facts are in dispute.

Getting Bolton up there so prove he did it doesn't matter when the defense is "Yeah he did it but we don't care, it's all a deep state witch hunt, but whatabout Biden..."

 

[pgwenthold]

I'm just not getting what Bolton is going to prove happened that Trump hasn't already openly bragged about doing.

It counters the "it's all second-hand and hearsay" complaints.

For Trump, remember, he wasn't under oath or anything, so just ignore everything he says. That's the approach they have taken.

 

[acbytesla]

Not exactly. I know there's inherent bias, and therefore I discount glowing "he destroyed them in conversation" reports from people who are clearly fans already. One red flag for me is the hyperbole. The other is the set-piece nature of the fantasy.

I'm interested in endorsements at the "Biden would probably handle himself pretty well, and it might even be embarrassing for the Republicans" end of the spectrum. Your endorsement is closer to the "Biden will dominate the room and school the Republicans in a gotcha moment like on TV" end of the spectrum.

Which is fine, give endorsements in whatever tone or idiom you like best. But when it's towards that end of the spectrum, I apply a Tucker Carlson conversion factor, to get better estimate of how well he'd actually do.

I just think someone of Biden's experience who probably understands what he did in Ukraine better than anyone in the room can handle Trump's conspiracy theory team.

I have always laughed at people who declare this person or that person a genius or an idiot when the facts were or weren't on their sides. It doesn't work that way. I've sold countless products in my life. Some were hard as hell to sell and others sold themselves. As much as I'd like to take credit for being successful, I know the best way to sell is pick the right company/products to sell.

So unless Trump's team has some unknown to this moment monster bombshell, I like Biden's chances of mopping up.