Cont: Deeper than primes - Continuation 2

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...bijective membership function...

You are back to making up your own definitions. It is much easier, I suppose, to spout your nonsense when you are unconstrained by meaning.

Do have fun, but you fail to make any point in Mathematics.
 
You are back to making up your own definitions.
The two following equivalent examples are taken from Traditional Mathematics:

Example 1:

There is set A (the set which is postulated to be infinite), such that the empty set is a member of A, and such that whenever any x is a member of A, the set formed by taking the union of x with its singleton {x}, is also a member of A.

So, both x and xU{x} are members of A.

{} → {{}}
{{}} → {{},{{}}}
{{},{{}}} → {{},{{}},{{},{{}}}}
... etc. are all members of A in example 1.

So, Syntactically xxU{x} is the bijective membership function of A (no x, xU{x} or any gödel number m are missing from A).


Example 2:

There is set A (the set which is postulated to be infinite), such that the empty set is a member of A, and such that whenever any x is a member of A, the set formed by {x}, is also a member of A.

So, both x and {x} are members of A.

{} → {{}}
{{}} → {{{}}}
{{{}}} → {{{{}}}}}
... etc. are all members of A in example 2.

So, Syntactically x → {x} is the bijective membership function of A (no x, {x} or any gödel number m are missing from A).

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Example 2 easily replaces example 1 (which is used in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12804530&postcount=3416) without changing the argument.

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Nothing maps to the empty set.

Wrong , {} → {{}} and {{}} → {} are inverses of each other.


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It is much easier, I suppose, to spout your nonsense when you are unconstrained by meaning.

jsfisher, please explain what do you mean by "The Axiom of Infinity establishes a set in terms of Mathematics." (especially the highlighted part)?
 
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Please observe the following semantic diagram:

48694698242_e6065a8174_o.jpg


As can be seen, there is bijection between X-Axioms and Y-Theorems, as follows:

{}{{}}
{{}}{{},{{}}}
{{},{{}}}{{},{{}},{{},{{}}}}
......


It is a bijection since X-Axioms and Y-Theorems are inverses of each other as follows:

X-axiom proves Y-theorem and Y-theorem is proven by X-axiom.
 
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Here is a quote taken from wikipedia: ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countable_set#Formal_overview_without_details )

Formal overview without details

By definition a set S is countable if there exists an injective function f : S → N from S to the natural numbers N = {0, 1, 2, 3, ...}.

It might seem natural to divide the sets into different classes: put all the sets containing one element together; all the sets containing two elements together; ...; finally, put together all infinite sets and consider them as having the same size. This view is not tenable, however, under the natural definition of size.

To elaborate this we need the concept of a bijection. Although a "bijection" seems a more advanced concept than a number, the usual development of mathematics in terms of set theory defines functions before numbers, as they are based on much simpler sets. This is where the concept of a bijection comes in: define the correspondence

a ↔ 1, b ↔ 2, c ↔ 3

Since every element of {a, b, c} is paired with precisely one element of {1, 2, 3}, and vice versa, this defines a bijection.

We now generalize this situation and define two sets as of the same size if (and only if) there is a bijection between them. For all finite sets this gives us the usual definition of "the same size". What does it tell us about the size of infinite sets?

Consider the sets A = {1, 2, 3, ... }, the set of positive integers and B = {2, 4, 6, ... }, the set of even positive integers. We claim that, under our definition, these sets have the same size, and that therefore B is countably infinite. Recall that to prove this we need to exhibit a bijection between them. But this is easy, using n ↔ 2n, so that

1 ↔ 2, 2 ↔ 4, 3 ↔ 6, 4 ↔ 8, ....

As in the earlier example, every element of A has been paired off with precisely one element of B, and vice versa. Hence they have the same size. This is an example of a set of the same size as one of its proper subsets, which is impossible for finite sets.

Please pay attention that |A| is not defined as an accurate value in case of infinite sets (the very notion of size is not well defined in case of infinite sets) so the phrase "Hence they have the same size" has no well defined basis.

For example: writing n ↔ 2n says nothing about an accurate value of |A| > any given n.

As long as this is the case "..." is not some technical problem of writing down infinitely many elements, but it is actually an essential property of literally being an infinity set (which means that no set of infinitely many objects has an accurate amount of objects, as its essential property).

For more details, please look at http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12807974&postcount=3422 and http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12811951&postcount=3423 .
 
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Please pay attention that |A| is not defined as an accurate value in case of infinite sets (the very notion of size is not well defined in case of infinite sets) so the phrase "Hence they have the same size" has no well defined basis.
It's based on the very definition of two sets having the same size, namely that there exists a bijection between them. So the basis is rock solid. Try again.
 
It's based on the very definition of two sets having the same size, namely that there exists a bijection between them. So the basis is rock solid. Try again.
"Having the same size" does not actually define the accurate size in case of infinite sets (bijection is simply a 1-to-1 and onto proportion between the given infinite sets), so there is no rock solid basis in your argument. Try again.

Again: writing n ↔ 2n says nothing about an accurate value of |A| > any given n.

If |A| is defined only by bijection, it is not satisfied in terms of actual infinity ("Having the same size" holds only in case of potential infinity where we do not care about any accurate size but only about the 1-to-1 and onto proportion between the given infinite sets) and this is exactly my argument about |A| in case of infinite sets.

In other words, the transfinite mathematical universe (which is based on the notion of actual infinity) is not well defined.
 
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By Traditional Mathematics infinite set N = {1,2,3,...} is in bejection with any infinite subset of it, so according to https://math.stackexchange.com/ques...ss-than-the-natural-numbers?noredirect=1&lq=1 there are no infinite subsets of N with cardinality less than |N|.

By this reasoning it is concluded that |N| is the smallest cardinality > than any given n.

Please pay attention that the accurate value of |N| is undefined and so is the case about the value of the cardinality of any infinite subset of it.

All what traditional mathematicians care is about the bijection between the mapped sets, and yet they claim that even if the accurate value of the cardinality of N or any cardinality of any infinite subset of it is not accurately defined, one can claim that such sets are complete (all of their members are already included, exactly as the members of finite non-empty sets are already included in their sets).

In other words, traditional mathematicians ignore the essential fact that any non-empty finite set has a cardinality with an accurate value (and therefore can be considered as a complete set) where the infinite set N or any infinite subset of it, do not have cardinalities with accurate value (and therefore can't be considered as complete sets).

So, the bijection between infinite set N = {1,2,3,...} and any infinite subset of it, can't be used in order to conclude that they are also complete.

In that case infinite set N = {1,2,3,...} and any infinite subset of it, can't be defined in terms of actual infinity.

So, we have left with potential infinity as the fundamental notion about infinite set N = {1,2,3,...} and any infinite subset of it, where bijection is not the only possible matching between them, for example:

2 ↔ 1
4 ↔ 2
6 ↔ 3
8
...

In this case there are potentially infinite two sets, where the left set always has one more object.

Moreover, the same argument holds for any kind of sets, for example:

# ↔ &
% ↔ ?
@ ↔ !
*
...
 
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More about the completeness of the collection of natural numbers.

I use here the word "collection" instead of "set" since set is usually defined as a collection of distinct objects where order is irrelevant.

It is easily understood that by ordering the objects of a given collection, it does not change the number of its objects, even in the case of sets (where order is irrelevant).

So cardinality (the number of objects of a given set) is not influenced by any order.

N = {1,2,3,...} easily enables to match between a given object and a given cardinality, such that every possible object of N is already a member of N and yet the cardinality of N is not accurately defined exactly because the biggest member of N does not exist (N can't be taken as an object of its own rhight exactly because the number of its members (its cardinality) is not accurately defined).

The inability to show some n that is not already a member N can't be used alone in order to conclude that N is a complete set, exactly because the inability to define the biggest member of N also must be considered.

Unfortunately, traditional mathematicians built their mathematical frameworks by using only the inability to show some n that is not already a member N, in order to (wrongly) conclude that N is a complete mathematical object (or in their jargon "an object of its own right" as written in the beginning of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_(mathematics)).

Henri Poincare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Poincaré#Attitude_towards_transfinite_numbers is very clear about the transfinite system (which is a wrong attempt to define the infinite in terms of collection).

There is no wonder that jsfisher (a traditional mathematician) can't answer to the question written at the and of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12807974&postcount=3422 .
 
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The Axiom Of Infinity (by words, based on Wikipedia): "There is set A (the set which is postulated to be infinite), such that the empty set is a member of A, and such that whenever any x is a member of A, the set formed by taking the union of x with its singleton {x}, is also a member of A."

Please pay attention that given any A successor, it is finite since it is constructed exactly by all the finitely many previous A members, by induction.

But there is nothing in induction that guarantees infinitely many members in A just because it is our wishful thinking, so no axiom that is based on induction guarantees infinitely many members.

For example, let's take N (the set of natural numbers).

The inability to show some n that is not already a member of N, can't be used alone in order to conclude that N is a complete and infinite set, exactly because the inability to define the biggest member of N, also must be considered.

Since the biggest number of N does not exist, |N| accurate value is actually undefined.

It is claimed that order is irrelevant in case of sets, but it is easily understood that order does not change the cardinality (the number of members) of a given set, so the inability to define the biggest member of N has a direct influence about its cardinality and in the considered case |N| accurate value is actually undefined.
 
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The Axiom Of Infinity (by words, based on Wikipedia): "There is set A (the set which is postulated to be infinite), such that the empty set is a member of A, and such that whenever any x is a member of A, the set formed by taking the union of x with its singleton {x}, is also a member of A."

Please pay attention that given any A successor, it is finite since it is constructed exactly by all the finitely many previous A members, by induction.

But there is nothing in induction that guarantees infinitely many members in A just because it is our wishful thinking, so no axiom that is based on induction guarantees infinitely many members.

For example, let's take N (the set of natural numbers).

The inability to show some n that is not already a member of N, can't be used alone in order to conclude that N is a complete and infinite set, exactly because the inability to define the biggest member of N, also must be considered.

Since the biggest number of N does not exist, |N| accurate value is actually undefined.

It is claimed that order is irrelevant in case of sets, but it is easily understood that order does not change the cardinality (the number of members) of a given set, so the inability to define the biggest member of N has a direct influence about its cardinality and in the considered case |N| accurate value is actually undefined.
Everyone has stopped responding to your crap cliams.

Have you any idea why that might be?.

In keeping with woo beliefs, you likely believe that people have ceased because your god like beliefs cannot be contested.

In reality, people get bored with a crank eventually. Now to be fair, most of those are not science cranks. There is the telepathy crew.
There are the dowsing crew.
There are the astrology crew.
There are the flat earth crew.
There the creationist crew.
And on and on.


You particular flavour of belief garners no special condideration.

You are just one more wild claim in a sea of wild claims screaming for attention.

Who cares? Why is your claim more special than all of the other thousands?
 
Everyone has stopped responding to your crap cliams.

Have you any idea why that might be?.

In keeping with woo beliefs, you likely believe that people have ceased because your god like beliefs cannot be contested.

In reality, people get bored with a crank eventually. Now to be fair, most of those are not science cranks. There is the telepathy crew.
There are the dowsing crew.
There are the astrology crew.
There are the flat earth crew.
There the creationist crew.
And on and on.


You particular flavour of belief garners no special condideration.

You are just one more wild claim in a sea of wild claims screaming for attention.

Who cares? Why is your claim more special than all of the other thousands?
Just because doronshadmi doesn't understand infinity .... That's it.


Comments addressed to the claimant rather than the claim, are fundamentally worthless because they do not deal with the claim.

So, this time please deal with the content of claim http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13028612&postcount=3430
 
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Let's work on this one sentence.

Just because you can't write down something, it does not mean it doesn't exist.
The biggest member of N does not exist since given any N member, there is always at least one member that is bigger than it.

Therefore |N| accurate value is undefined.

This simple fact has nothing to do with the inability to write down something.
 
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How many numbers are between 1 and 2? An infinite amount.
In case of infinitely many ordered numbers, given any a and b numbers, such that a<b (where a and b are not taken only as integers), there is always at least one c number such that a<c<b.

Since order does not change the amount of the members, the fact that there is always at least one c number such that a<c<b, is equivalent to the fact that N biggest member does not exist.

So, whether there is always at least one next c number between any two given a<b numbers (where a and b are not taken only as integers), or given any N member, there is always at least one next member that is bigger than it, in both cases the accurate infinite amount is undefined.

Again, there is no wonder that jsfisher (a traditional mathematician) can't answer to the question written at the end of http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12807974&postcount=3422 exactly because the notion of |N| as an accurate value is no more than an arbitrary agreement based on no more than a belief among group of persons called traditional mathematicians, which force completeness on collections of infinitely many objects.

You particular flavour of belief garners no special condideration.
Infinity as a complete whole in terms of collections, is no more than a belief.

Traditional mathematicians believe that there is value |N|, which is greater than any member of N AND also accurately measures the amount of N members, but this belief is false since order does not change the amount of N members, and since the biggest member of N does not exist (since given any N member, there is always at least one member that is bigger than it), it is impossible to define an accurate value |N|, which is greater than any member of N.
 
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Let's work on this one sentence.

You can go earlier in Doronshadmi's post than that. The Axiom of Infinity declares the existence of a set with two properties. Almost immediately in the post Doronshadmi is interpreting it as a how-to instead of a there-is.
 
Again, infinity is not a number or fixed amount. You just can't subtract 100 from infinity and get a number.
|N| is defined (by belief) as fixed amount by traditional mathematicians (the accurate cardinality of any inductive set) where N is such set.

What you say actually supports my argument that |N| accurate value is undefined, unlike the agreed belief among traditional mathematicians (for example, jsfisher's belief, which can't deal (yet) with my question to him about the considered subject).

Please observe this:
It is much easier, I suppose, to spout your nonsense when you are unconstrained by meaning.
jsfisher, please explain what do you mean by "The Axiom of Infinity establishes a set in terms of Mathematics." (especially the highlighted part)?

jsfisher does not give (yet) any answer to that question and I wonder why :rr:
 
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You can go earlier in Doronshadmi's post than that. The Axiom of Infinity declares the existence of a set with two properties. Almost immediately in the post Doronshadmi is interpreting it as a how-to instead of a there-is.
jsfisher ,"there is" does not define A as an infinite complete whole set, as given in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13028612&postcount=3430.

Also you did not reply to http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13028612&postcount=3430 and http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13121718&postcount=3436.

Moreover:
It is much easier, I suppose, to spout your nonsense when you are unconstrained by meaning.
jsfisher, please explain what do you mean by "The Axiom of Infinity establishes a set in terms of Mathematics." (especially the highlighted part)?
 
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