Monkey See. Monkey Do. Oops $12 million.

[Sideroxylon]

Yeah, we get all that. Its the finer points that are a little murky, like using the innocent phrase 'monkey see, monkey do'. That is not specific to black people, the way a slur or wearing chains would be.

What some of us are asking is 'is this going too far, even though well intentioned?' Are we requiring white people never use the expression 'monkey do' at all, or just use it with white kids? Do you see what I mean?

Yeah, not sure you do get all that. i wouldn’t use it to describe black kids because I am white and white people have a history of debasing the dignity of black people that way.

 

[Thermal]

Yeah, not sure you do get all that. i wouldn’t use it to describe black kids because I am white and white people have a history of debasing the dignity of black people that way.

Do you do so? Do these kids receive that? Does anyone in this generation even do that?
Assuming This teacher is in his 40s or 50s, even his generation didn't do that (in mainstream America, more of a relic from the 50s and 60s).

Debasing the dignity of black people is a serious problem. Monkey see, monkey do is not. That is a colloquialism of mimicry.

Tell me, when people mention monkeys, you say your thought jump to black people? Mine sure don't. I doubt this teacher's did.

 

[psionl0]

I was beaten up repeatedly from about age 8 to age 14 by bullies. Not one of those attacks, or all of them together, affected me as profoundly as that adult shaming me for my appearance.

I have also been bullied and received hurtful remarks from adults whom I otherwise would have respected. Yes, it is painful and it can take a long time to get over things like these and in some ways, you never do.

But get some perspective. I have known kids who had it way harder than me. I may not have recognized the harm they were undergoing at the time because they necessarily had to adopt a tough facade to cope. I'm grateful that I didn't have to endure the hardships that some of my peers had to go through.

 

[Thermal]

My own father called me Sue and made a ton of gay cracks when I was a long haired teen. My own mother said I looked like a punk. I wonder how many millions they owe me? Maybe I should contact this OP lawyer...

 

[Sideroxylon]

Do you do so? Do these kids receive that? Does anyone in this generation even do that?
Assuming This teacher is in his 40s or 50s, even his generation didn't do that (in mainstream America, more of a relic from the 50s and 60s).

Debasing the dignity of black people is a serious problem. Monkey see, monkey do is not. That is a colloquialism of mimicry.

Tell me, when people mention monkeys, you say your thought jump to black people? Mine sure don't. I doubt this teacher's did.

That’s a common trope but its not about guilt for sins of the past. And lets not think our racist past is dead and buried because it is not.

I am never going to use that expression with a black person because I am mindful. There is a whole lot of comedy based around this from Basil Fawlty (not mentioning the war) to David Brent and Larry David. Do you try to move past or draw attention with a fumbling apology? But this case of staging photos and captioning them provided plenty of tine for reflection, didn’t it.

 

[Babbylonian]

I have also been bullied and received hurtful remarks from adults whom I otherwise would have respected. Yes, it is painful and it can take a long time to get over things like these and in some ways, you never do.

But get some perspective. I have known kids who had it way harder than me. I may not have recognized the harm they were undergoing at the time because they necessarily had to adopt a tough facade to cope. I'm grateful that I didn't have to endure the hardships that some of my peers had to go through.

Wow, you're such a sensitive soul. To **** on and dismiss the experiences of some people because of the far worse experiences of others even further removed is truly the height of empathy.

Couldn't you have just said "suck it up, weaklings" and saved yourself some time?

 

[Sideroxylon]

My own father called me Sue and made a ton of gay cracks when I was a long haired teen. My own mother said I looked like a punk. I wonder how many millions they owe me? Maybe I should contact this OP lawyer...

You cant pick them, can you. You can build better school cultures however. But you are just are trivialising the idea of a white teacher using racist symbolism towards black students.

Analogies are so often **** because they move goal posts and distract. But lets play. If you were going through a period of questioning your sexuality or gender and this was the context.. yeah why not see a lawyer. There are plenty of examples of such ****** parent behaviour leading to suicide and addiction.

Again was really careful with my own offspring about these kinds of things. Even jokes are things requiring reflection.

 

[ArchSas]

Maybe the moral of the story is, don't use your students as props for jokes. Or if you do, only work with students who know what you intend and are volunteering to be in on the joke.

I was thinking about why the defense of "he does this all the time with students, look at these other examples of pictures with mildly insulting, animal-related captions" didn't sit right with me, and then I realized it's because the kids are the butt of the joke. That might have been fine in the past, but we know better now. Those aren't pictures of kids having fun at the zoo interacting with animals, they're posed pictures the teacher later gives captions comparing them to animals in a denigrating way (like calling them ugly, and lets not forget that "monkey see, monkey do" is supposed to be an insult - usually indicating that a person is just mimicking something without being able to understand it). That just doesn't seem like a thing a teacher should be doing to me. They're supposed to be supportive, not insulting, and having your own fun at the kids' expense seems like it crosses a line IMO. Granted, my only experience working with kids was a few years as a camp counselor, but I can't imagine anything like that flying there. Or even any of the counselors thinking it was a good idea. We were always encouraged to take our goofy pictures having fun with the kids.

For the people trying to act like this would have been harmless with white kids, I'm going to have to strongly disagree. No matter what, they pictures would have been inappropriate, the teacher's carelessness just made that obvious by giving those insults a racial dimension as well.

 

[Babbylonian]

For the people trying to act like this would have been harmless with white kids, I'm going to have to strongly disagree. No matter what, they pictures would have been inappropriate, the teacher's carelessness just made that obvious by giving those insults a racial dimension as well.

It goes beyond carelessness into the realm of stupidity. The demographics of this school district are such that likely 70% of the students are white. The teacher had to make a conscious effort to choose only black kids to pose for the picture. Not that it would be any less problematic if there was a mix of kids in the picture; as you say, the bottom line is that the teacher is trying to make a joke at the expense of the students, whether that joke is racist or not.

 

[Thermal]

I was thinking about why the defense of "he does this all the time with students, look at these other examples of pictures with mildly insulting, animal-related captions" didn't sit right with me, and then I realized it's because the kids are the butt of the joke. That might have been fine in the past, but we know better now. Those aren't pictures of kids having fun at the zoo interacting with animals, they're posed pictures the teacher later gives captions comparing them to animals in a denigrating way (like calling them ugly, and lets not forget that "monkey see, monkey do" is supposed to be an insult - usually indicating that a person is just mimicking something without being able to understand it). That just doesn't seem like a thing a teacher should be doing to me. They're supposed to be supportive, not insulting, and having your own fun at the kids' expense seems like it crosses a line IMO. Granted, my only experience working with kids was a few years as a camp counselor, but I can't imagine anything like that flying there. Or even any of the counselors thinking it was a good idea. We were always encouraged to take our goofy pictures having fun with the kids.

For the people trying to act like this would have been harmless with white kids, I'm going to have to strongly disagree. No matter what, they pictures would have been inappropriate, the teacher's carelessness just made that obvious by giving those insults a racial dimension as well.

I think that would depend on the teachers relationship with the students. If he was more cold and distant, this would be entirely innapropriate. If he was ' one of the guys' and busted chops with the kids, would the familiarity make it ok? I certainly liked the teachers in school that acted like one of us, rather than above us

 

[Distracted1]

It goes beyond carelessness into the realm of stupidity. The demographics of this school district are such that likely 70% of the students are white. The teacher had to make a conscious effort to choose only black kids to pose for the picture. Not that it would be any less problematic if there was a mix of kids in the picture; as you say, the bottom line is that the teacher is trying to make a joke at the expense of the students, whether that joke is racist or not.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Would it be entirely unlikely that a small group of boys hanging together in such a demographic be of the same race?

 

[Distracted1]

You cant pick them, can you. You can build better school cultures however. But you are just are trivialising the idea of a white teacher using racist symbolism towards black students.

Analogies are so often **** because they move goal posts and distract. But lets play. If you were going through a period of questioning your sexuality or gender and this was the context.. yeah why not see a lawyer. There are plenty of examples of such ****** parent behaviour leading to suicide and addiction.

Again was really careful with my own offspring about these kinds of things. Even jokes are things requiring reflection.

Such an attitude perpetrates continued segregation IMO.

 

[Babbylonian]

Perhaps, perhaps not. Would it be entirely unlikely that a small group of boys hanging together in such a demographic be of the same race?

What does "hanging together" have to do with it when the teacher was choosing when and where to take the picture and choosing how they were posed? It was a school trip and these boys couldn't have been the only ones present.

 

[Thermal]

You cant pick them, can you. You can build better school cultures however. But y
You are just are trivialising the idea of a white teacher using racist symbolism towards black students.
Analogies are so often **** because they move goal posts and distract. But lets play. If you were going through a period of questioning your sexuality or gender and this was the context.. yeah why not see a lawyer. There are plenty of examples of such ****** parent behaviour leading to suicide and addiction.

Again was really careful with my own offspring about these kinds of things. Even jokes are things requiring reflection.

No, I'm questioning whether this was racist symbolism at all. A racist certainly cannot say anything remotely like this. A regular person could, IMO, without being thought of as a racist.

I was serious about that question I asked you. When someone says monkey, why do you think of black people? I think of monkeys. I don't mean that as a slam, btw. I mean, are you making a concious effort to be hyper viligant about the perception of racism?

 

[sphenisc]

Perhaps, perhaps not. Would it be entirely unlikely that a small group of boys hanging together in such a demographic be of the same race?

Are we back on the lynching pictures now?

 

[Distracted1]

What does "hanging together" have to do with it when the teacher was choosing when and where to take the picture and choosing how they were posed? It was a school trip and these boys couldn't have been the only ones present.

Your suggestion was that it couldn't be possible in a 70/30 demographic to randomly select four students of the same race. That is not only mathematically false, but IRL it is likely that a random grouping of four boys in the 70/30 demographic you have asserted be of the same race is more than simply statistically likely.

More simply put, the teacher could have simply selected "you four", as opposed to looking around to cobble together a group that only includes one race.

 

[Distracted1]

Are we back on the lynching pictures now?

are you joking?

 

[ArchSas]

I think that would depend on the teachers relationship with the students. If he was more cold and distant, this would be entirely innapropriate. If he was ' one of the guys' and busted chops with the kids, would the familiarity make it ok? I certainly liked the teachers in school that acted like one of us, rather than above us

I don't. Firstly, because a teacher isn't "one of the guys," and shouldn't act as such. But more importantly, because a teacher shouldn't be insulting students, even playfully. In today's world that's seen as inappropriate and usually bad for students. Having a good, joking relationship with kids is a good thing, but it's entirely possible to create that kind of relationship without basing it around insulting comparing students to animals. I know that very well firsthand, as it's the only way I was even remotely able to be successful as a camp counselor - I worked best with older kids I could build a joking, but respectful and positive, relationship with. And again, when it came to pictures and things like that, we would always be doing the goofy things with the students and not to them. I don't know if you'll recognize the difference or not, but it's significant.

 

[Babbylonian]

Your suggestion was that it couldn't be possible in a 70/30 demographic to randomly select four students of the same race. That is not only mathematically false, but IRL it is likely that a random grouping of four boys in the 70/30 demographic you have asserted be of the same race is more than simply statistically likely.

More simply put, the teacher could have simply selected "you four", as opposed to looking around to cobble together a group that only includes one race.

That's a wild misrepresentation of my "suggestion." My suggestion is that it wasn't in any way random. He didn't roll dice or use a randomizer app on his phone. He chose.

 

[William Parcher]

There are some missing details.

We don't quite know to what degree previous students have liked Monkey Do and Not All Are Cute. A poster described it as a joke at their expense. But maybe instead they loved it and even hoped that they would be the Monkey Do or even Not All Are Cute. A school tradition that kids looked forward to - at which point "at their expense" is meaningless because they actually demand it. Maybe. We don't know.

We don't know how many students are photographed posing at the zoo before choosing a picture for Monkey Do and Not Cute. The photographer might take dozens of pictures of all sorts of posed pals hanging out together and only later decide on the ones that are shown in the slideshow. If this is true then the teacher might choose black students because if they continue to use only white students then it is not a racially inclusive tradition. IOW, it's racist to leave black kids out of the fun tradition. Maybe. We don't know.