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Cont: The Trump Presidency: Part 19

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True, different things are not the same thing. I'm not sure what your point is. Can we not draw comparisons between different things? Isn't that at the very nature of a comparison?

Sure, we can compare different things. But your "comparison" wasn't in the least bit coherent.

They are both Department of Justice investigations, right? Why should one be taken with literal exactness and no extrapolation or interpretation while the other dictates that only a fool would not see the unwritten implications?

That's not what's happening at all. In BOTH cases, I'm saying that there's a limit to what the report ITSELF says. And in BOTH cases, one can extrapolate beyond the report itself (and I myself do so), but any conclusions you or I reach by doing so are not part of the report. There's no lack of consistency here, you just don't like what I've extrapolated from either report. And you can disagree with my conclusions in both cases, but your attempt to present some sort of contradiction where none exists isn't going to work.
 
Sure, we can compare different things. But your "comparison" wasn't in the least bit coherent.

That's not what's happening at all. In BOTH cases, I'm saying that there's a limit to what the report ITSELF says. And in BOTH cases, one can extrapolate beyond the report itself (and I myself do so), but any conclusions you or I reach by doing so are not part of the report. There's no lack of consistency here, you just don't like what I've extrapolated from either report. And you can disagree with my conclusions in both cases, but your attempt to present some sort of contradiction where none exists isn't going to work.

Why is it you get your panties in a twist over the slightest "potential' impropriety of the FBI and totally ignore the mountains of evidence of actual crimes and abuses of power of members of the Trump family and this administration?
 
No, you are.

Also from page xiii of the report:

We do not speculate whether or how having accurate and complete information might have influenced the decisions of senior Department leaders who supported the four FISA applications, or the court, if they had known all of the relevant information.

The IG report is quite explicitly NOT stating that it would have made no difference. They don't conclude that it would have either, because it's not their job to do so and the mistakes aren't OK regardless, but TGZ's claim is simply false.

My question is, how did you and TGZ get this so completely wrong? Did you just assume that was the case? Did you misunderstand something about the report or someone's description of it? Did you believe someone else who was wrong about the contents of the report? Did you mistake someone's opinion for a conclusion of the report?
 
Why is it you get your panties in a twist over the slightest "potential' impropriety of the FBI


"Potential"? What the IG report details isn't potential impropriety. It's demonstrated. The unanswered questions are why they happened, and whether this was peculiar to Carter Page or whether it's systematic throughout FISA cases.
 
"Potential"? What the IG report details isn't potential impropriety. It's demonstrated. The unanswered questions are why they happened, and whether this was peculiar to Carter Page or whether it's systematic throughout FISA cases.

Exactly. "Potential". Your whining about whether the FBI crossed their t's and dotted their i's when securing the warrant and at the same time ignoring that Trump is a criminal.

It's pathetic.
 
Exactly. "Potential".

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First Trump claimed that there was an 'imminent' attack planned against Americans by Soleimani as a justification for his assassination. No evidence of this has been put forth by the Trump administration. In fact, the 'evidence' was mocked as "sophomoric", and "utterly unconvincing". Even Republican Senators Mike Lee and Rand Paul agreed it was "one of the worst military briefings" they'd heard.

Today we were told that the threat was against a US embassy...or embassies. Pompeo admitted he didn't know where or when these alleged attacks would occur so why they were considered 'imminent' is anyone's guess. Pompeo also claimed that members of Congress were informed about the threat to the embassy/embassies, but several members have denied that. Trump admitted today that he "believes" it would have been four embassies. He stressed the word "believes" instead of saying he "knows". In Trump speak, that means "I'm just making this up".

This administration's credibility is non-existent. It's a sad, sad day when the first reaction to anything the say is disbelief but they are the victims of their own making.
 
First Trump claimed that there was an 'imminent' attack planned against Americans by Soleimani as a justification for his assassination. No evidence of this has been put forth by the Trump administration. In fact, the 'evidence' was mocked as "sophomoric", and "utterly unconvincing". Even Republican Senators Mike Lee and Rand Paul agreed it was "one of the worst military briefings" they'd heard.

Today we were told that the threat was against a US embassy...or embassies. Pompeo admitted he didn't know where or when these alleged attacks would occur so why they were considered 'imminent' is anyone's guess. Pompeo also claimed that members of Congress were informed about the threat to the embassy/embassies, but several members have denied that. Trump admitted today that he "believes" it would have been four embassies. He stressed the word "believes" instead of saying he "knows". In Trump speak, that means "I'm just making this up".

This administration's credibility is non-existent. It's a sad, sad day when the first reaction to anything the say is disbelief but they are the victims of their own making.

This is probably the worst thing about Trump. He CANNOT BE TRUSTED. I really want to know why anyone should or could know that Trump is telling the truth about anything?
 
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This is probably the worst thing about Trump. He CANNOT BE TRUSTED. I really want to know why anyone should or could know that Trump is telling the truth about anything?

I've come to the tentative conclusion that he adds extra orange and speaks more slowly when planning to lie heavily. Casual lying is generally a paler orange and more rapid-fire speech.

I might well be wrong.
 
First Trump claimed that there was an 'imminent' attack planned against Americans by Soleimani as a justification for his assassination. No evidence of this has been put forth by the Trump administration.
...
Today we were told that the threat was against a US embassy...or embassies. Pompeo admitted he didn't know where or when these alleged attacks would occur so why they were considered 'imminent' is anyone's guess
Meanwhile there are reports that Trump told people he launched the attack to appease certain republican Senators who might be influential in the impeachment trial.

(I posted a reference to that in the 'impeachment' thread.)

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12950037&postcount=3167
 
The issue in the Horowitz report under discussion involves the FBI's application to conduct surveillance of Carter Page, an American citizen, and did they meet the requirements under the Foreign Surveillance Information Act (FISA). They may not have. The problem with the request involved the Woods Procedure, which specifies the request be sent to the Justice Department "where attorneys from the National Security Division comb through the application to verify all the assertions made in it. Known as “Woods procedures” after Michael J. Woods, the FBI Special Agent attorney who developed this layer of approval, DOJ verifies the accuracy of every fact stated in the application. If anything looks unsubstantiated, the application is sent back to the FBI to provide additional evidentiary support."

The Horowitz Report stated the FBI agents involved did not seem to understand the procedure:
The agents and SSAs also did not follow, or appear to even know, the requirements in the Woods Procedures to reverify the factual assertions from previous applications that are repeated in renewal applications and verify source characterization statements with the CHS handling agent and document the verification in the Woods File. Report

The reason Page was being surveilled was, he was suspected of being a point of contact between Russian figures and the Trump campaign. Page had a history with Russian government figures. The FBI had investigated Page previously, in 2013, when Page provided a Russian government figure, also a spy, with information about the American energy industry. At that time there was also an attempt to recruit Page to work for SVR, a Russian intelligence agency. But Page insisted to the FBI that the information he gave the Russians was all publicly available. Eventually, the FBI concluded Page had not agreed to spy for Russia and had probably not been aware the government figure he was consulting with was in fact, a Russian spy. Page was not charged. But when he surfaced again in 2016, as the Trump campaign's foreign policy adviser, with accusations flying around that Trump had ties to the Russian government (which was secretly working to aid his election) it is understandable the FBI found Page a person of great interest.

Something in the Horowitz Report that Trump supporters doggedly ignore is, the following statement on page III:
We concluded that [Counter intelligence Division (CD) Assistant Director (AD) E.W.] Priestap's exercise of discretion in opening the investigation was in compliance with Department and FBI policies and we did not find documentary or testimonial evidence that political bias or improper motivation influenced his decision.

What could be clearer? There may have been some problems with the way the FBI pursued the Carter investigation and the surveillance request, but it is far from being any kind of smoking gun that would 'prove' the whole thing was a "hoax."

I have news for Trump supporters. People not supporting Trump -- whether they despise him or are middle-of-the-road independents -- would NOT support an investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election if they truly believed it was a hoax cooked up by people who did not like Donald Trump. It's a question of basic values. Instead, most non-Trump supporters say, "I understand why Trump's supporters say the things they do, and profess to believe the things they do, but I'm not going to allow them to drag me down to their level." Something else Trump supporters 'don't get.' And I don't blame them. If I was a Trump supporter I wouldn't want to get it either.
 
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I've come to the tentative conclusion that he adds extra orange and speaks more slowly when planning to lie heavily. Casual lying is generally a paler orange and more rapid-fire speech.

I might well be wrong.

I think the bizzarreness of all this is even Trump's supporters admit that Trump is inveterate liar. Yet we're all supposed to still get behind him? That makes my skin crawl.

Asking young men to put their lives on the line requires a principle. Yet Trump is totally devoid of principle and cannot be trusted when he suggests there is one.

Trump LIES on a daily basis. I need to know. How can I know when he is telling the truth?

TRUMP. The President who cried wolf.
 
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Someone on NPR today described Trump as the Reverse-Teddy Roosevelt: Trump speaks loudly and carries a little stick.
 
The fact that nobody said they were motivated by bias doesn't mean that they weren't biased.


That doesn't change the fact that you have no actual evidence of bias. That's kind of important, you know.

You have no evidence, and yet for some reason you simply believe. LOL!

Is your belief even falsifiable? Your belief appears to me to be akin to a belief in astrology or numerology.
 
The report doesn't rebut the accusation of bias. The fact that nobody said they were motivated by bias doesn't mean that they weren't biased. From the IG report (page xiii):

We identified at least 17 significant errors or omissions in the Carter Page FISA applications, and many additional errors in the Woods Procedures. These errors and omissions resulted from case agents providing wrong or incomplete information to and failing to flag important issues for discussion. While we did not find documentary or testimonial evidence of intentional misconduct on the part of the case agents who assisted preparing the applications, or the agents and supervisors who performed the Woods Procedures, we also did not receive satisfactory explanations for the errors or problems we identified.​

In other words, if you're ruling out bias simply because nobody said they were motivated by bias, you're a fool.
And let me further say that if there was no bias, if these kinds of screw ups are in fact standard procedure in the FBI, then THANK GOD for Trump complaining about it, because otherwise this routine abuse might never have seen the light of day.


'Testimonial' evidence isn't limited to someone saying they weren't biased; it can include others saying they saw no evidence of bias by anyone else. If a pro-Trump agent (and there certainly had to be some) saw evidence of someone being anti-Trump biased, they'd certainly have said so during their own interviews. Additionally, did you overlook the part that said they also found no documentary evidence?

ETA: my highlights
 
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The report doesn't rebut the accusation of bias. The fact that nobody said they were motivated by bias doesn't mean that they weren't biased.

That doesn't change the fact that you have no actual evidence of bias. That's kind of important, you know.

You have no evidence, and yet for some reason you simply believe. LOL!

Is your belief even falsifiable? Your belief appears to me to be akin to a belief in astrology or numerology.

THERE! That nails it.

Zig is right that we cannot disprove that there wasn't some bias we are unaware of. But I can't disprove anything I'm unaware of.

We also can't prove that Trump ran a fraudulent school and a charitable foundation and that he paid porn stars to prevent the electorate from hearing this news and that Trump withheld military aid from an ally simply to help him get reelected.

Oh I forgot, we can prove all that.
 
That doesn't change the fact that you have no actual evidence of bias. That's kind of important, you know.

You have no evidence, and yet for some reason you simply believe. LOL!

Is your belief even falsifiable? Your belief appears to me to be akin to a belief in astrology or numerology.


If it's not 100% praise and adulation of Dear Leader, it's biased.
 
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