Cont: The Trump Presidency: Part 19

[dudalb]

1983 Beirut Marine Barracks Attack
USS Cole Attack
9/11 Attack

President Trump: “By removing Soleimani, we have sent a powerful message to terrorists: If you value your own life, you will not threaten the lives of our people.”

Is it really that hard for President Trump to comprehend that many terrorists are very willing to give their own lives to create an act of terrorism?

.....
I’m running out of insults for the president.
Maybe dunderhead. I don’t think I’ve used dunderhead.

I am a lot more hard line on terrorism then many people here, but think Trump is like the most badly qualified president ever to handle the problem.

 

[Stacyhs]

Taking the assumption that you really only refer to white men.

I would argue that 17th and 18th and 19th century Britain had dramatic social mobility as compared with anywhere else. Pretty much from the end of the Tudor period the middle class developed and essentially became the dominant force in the economy. It was that new middle class that moved to America. It is worth remembering that perhaps the one person who did most to produce the British Empire was Benjamin Disraeli. From a poor immigrant Jewish family he became arguably the most powerful person in the world and an Earl.

Of course most of the US rights were taken from those of revolutionary France. Most of the other protections were based on the English common law and included rights such as habeas corpus dating back to the thirteenth century. US rights were probably greater with regards to religious freedom than England, but considerably less in that they allowed slavery. Also it could be argued that the US failed (fails?) to protect the rights of the indigenous peoples. Revolutionary French rights were probably greater than those of the US in that they outlawed slavery, although they were more strongly anti-religious.

When thinking of rights in the US it is worth going beyond those permitted to white men. The US still allows child marriage, particularly in the case of rape - rather reminiscent of the practice in many Islamic countries.

As already noted by acbytesla, it was the French who were influenced by the American Revolution, although, as also already noted, the American revolutionaries were influenced by the Enlightenment, especially Rousseau and Voltaire.

Napoleon rescinded the ban on slavery in 1802 that had been issued only a few years earlier. Slavery in French colonies did not end until the mid-nineteenth century.

ETA: this subject is waaaaaaay off topic so I will refrain from commenting on it further. I once received a yellow warning card for being much less off topic than this.

 

[Steve]

1983 Beirut Marine Barracks Attack
USS Cole Attack
9/11 Attack

President Trump: “By removing Soleimani, we have sent a powerful message to terrorists: If you value your own life, you will not threaten the lives of our people.”

Is it really that hard for President Trump to comprehend that many terrorists are very willing to give their own lives to create an act of terrorism?

.....
I’m running out of insults for the president.
Maybe dunderhead. I don’t think I’ve used dunderhead.

Bone spurs. He comprehended only cowardice.ì

 

[Norman Alexander]

1983 Beirut Marine Barracks Attack
USS Cole Attack
9/11 Attack

President Trump: “By removing Soleimani, we have sent a powerful message to terrorists: If you value your own life, you will not threaten the lives of our people.”

Is it really that hard for President Trump to comprehend that many terrorists are very willing to give their own lives to create an act of terrorism?

And so few are needed to make such a big impact.

Trump's father should have told him about the "terror" a few hundred kamikaze pilots could wreak on the US Navy in the Pacific in 1944/45. Sure, they didn't win the war or even make much of a dent in any US military progress overall. But they scared the heck out of a much, much bigger enemy, made them change their ways of fighting, and have an immortal place in the history of all-out terror warfare as an example.

Oh wait. Trump's father never fought in that war. He profiteered off the military instead. So what was I thinking.

I’m running out of insults for the president.
Maybe dunderhead. I don’t think I’ve used dunderhead.

I'm sure we could all assist with this, in multiple languages. But the autocensor will turn them to asterisks.

 

[Trebuchet]

1983 Beirut Marine Barracks Attack
USS Cole Attack
9/11 Attack

President Trump: “By removing Soleimani, we have sent a powerful message to terrorists: If you value your own life, you will not threaten the lives of our people.”

Is it really that hard for President Trump to comprehend that many terrorists are very willing to give their own lives to create an act of terrorism?

.....
I’m running out of insults for the president.
Maybe dunderhead. I don’t think I’ve used dunderhead.

No, he can't understand it. He faked bone spurs to avoid Vietnam. Being committed to any cause but the Cause of Trump is beyond his comprehension.

 

[Stacyhs]

1983 Beirut Marine Barracks Attack
USS Cole Attack
9/11 Attack

President Trump: “By removing Soleimani, we have sent a powerful message to terrorists: If you value your own life, you will not threaten the lives of our people.”

Is it really that hard for President Trump to comprehend that many terrorists are very willing to give their own lives to create an act of terrorism?

.....
I’m running out of insults for the president.
Maybe dunderhead. I don’t think I’ve used dunderhead.

Bone spurs. He comprehended only cowardice.ì

Apparently Trump does not understand the concept of martyrdom. He doesn't understand the idea of being willing to die for a belief or principle.

ETA: Trebuchet beat me to it.

 

[Babbylonian]

I guess you can quibble over every turn of phrase given that Trump has proven to be stupid and evil beyond belief, but there are terrorists who value their lives over principle. They tend to be the ones pulling the strings and providing the funding for the terrorists who don't. The idea of making those people fear for their lives is worthwhile. Of course, it's difficult to fear someone who regularly demonstrates incompetence, so I doubt that this assassination will accomplish that goal.

 

[acbytesla]

As already noted by acbytesla, it was the French who were influenced by the American Revolution, although, as also already noted, the American revolutionaries were influenced by the Enlightenment, especially Rousseau and Voltaire.

Napoleon rescinded the ban on slavery in 1802 that had been issued only a few years earlier. Slavery in French colonies did not end until the mid-nineteenth century.

ETA: this subject is waaaaaaay off topic so I will refrain from commenting on it further. I once received a yellow warning card for being much less off topic than this.

I want to respectfully say there were a great many minds that inspired the American and French revolutionaries beyond Voltaire and Rousseau which were just two who came to mind. Everyone from Immanuel Kant to Montesquieu to Diderot to Locke to David Hume to Adam Smith as well as others.

But we went down this path because Brooklyn suggested I would have been a loyalist in the American revolution because I didn't embrace a blind loyalty to Trump. And while it is just speculation given we can't go back in time it seems far more likely that Brooklyn would have been a loyalist as he is embracing authority blindly, not I.

"Support Trump" seems much more like "Hail King George" than anything from the spirit of Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine.

 

[Stacyhs]

I want to respectfully say there were a great many minds that inspired the American and French revolutionaries beyond Voltaire and Rousseau which were just two who came to mind. Everyone from Immanuel Kant to Montesquieu to Diderot to Locke to David Hume to Adam Smith as well as others.

But we went down this path because Brooklyn suggested I would have been a loyalist in the American revolution because I didn't embrace a blind loyalty to Trump. And while it is just speculation given we can't go back in time it seems far more likely that Brooklyn would have been a loyalist as he is embracing authority blindly, not I.

"Support Trump" seems much more like "Hail King George" than anything from the spirit of Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine.

Seconded.

 

[Stacyhs]

I guess you can quibble over every turn of phrase given that Trump has proven to be stupid and evil beyond belief, but there are terrorists who value their lives over principle. They tend to be the ones pulling the strings and providing the funding for the terrorists who don't. The idea of making those people fear for their lives is worthwhile. Of course, it's difficult to fear someone who regularly demonstrates incompetence, so I doubt that this assassination will accomplish that goal.

Of course there are terrorists who fund others to become 'martyrs' and they certainly enable terrorism. I don't think anyone here has said or implied there aren't. I doubt this assassination of Soleimani has deterred any of these people but it's certainly enraged Iranians.

 

[Babbylonian]

I want to respectfully say there were a great many minds that inspired the American and French revolutionaries beyond Voltaire and Rousseau which were just two who came to mind. Everyone from Immanuel Kant to Montesquieu to Diderot to Locke to David Hume to Adam Smith as well as others.

But we went down this path because Brooklyn suggested I would have been a loyalist in the American revolution because I didn't embrace a blind loyalty to Trump. And while it is just speculation given we can't go back in time it seems far more likely that Brooklyn would have been a loyalist as he is embracing authority blindly, not I.

"Support Trump" seems much more like "Hail King George" than anything from the spirit of Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine.

Sounds like what I was taught in high school history and government classes...some years ago. I can't remember any teacher telling me that it was my responsibility to support everything the US government does, let alone offer unquestioning loyalty to an individual member of that government.

If one can't peacefully oppose the government, that leaves only violent opposition.

 

[Babbylonian]

Of course there are terrorists who fund others to become 'martyrs' and they certainly enable terrorism. I don't think anyone here has said or implied there aren't. I doubt this assassination of Soleimani has deterred any of these people but it's certainly enraged Iranians.

My point is that it doesn't make sense to take issue with every Trump sentence fragment, especially when they happen to be correct.

Again, this is not me supporting Trump or his choice to assassinate Soleimani (particularly with attendant collateral damage). It's merely a suggestion that it pays to choose avenues of criticism with at least a little bit of care. In this specific instance, the criticism was sloppy and ill-considered.

 

[Stacyhs]

My point is that it doesn't make sense to take issue with every Trump sentence fragment, especially when they happen to be correct.

Again, this is not me supporting Trump or his choice to assassinate Soleimani (particularly with attendant collateral damage). It's merely a suggestion that it pays to choose avenues of criticism with at least a little bit of care. In this specific instance, the criticism was sloppy and ill-considered.

Just to be sure we're talking about the same thing, exactly what criticism was 'sloppy and ill-considered?

 

[Babbylonian]

Just to be sure we're talking about the same thing, exactly what criticism was 'sloppy and ill-considered?

1983 Beirut Marine Barracks Attack
USS Cole Attack
9/11 Attack

President Trump: “By removing Soleimani, we have sent a powerful message to terrorists: If you value your own life, you will not threaten the lives of our people.”

Is it really that hard for President Trump to comprehend that many terrorists are very willing to give their own lives to create an act of terrorism?

.....
I’m running out of insults for the president.
Maybe dunderhead. I don’t think I’ve used dunderhead.

Killing organizers of terrorists, those at the top who expect not only to survive but to prosper, actually is an effective way to discouraging those terrorists.

Again, I make no claims as to the effectiveness of this particular action, and I would be ecstatic if Trump was immediately dragged out his office in chains, but what he said was not wrong. Not every terrorist is a front-line fighter or suicide bomber, and targeting the people encouraging, training, and funding those people is a worthwhile aim.

 

[Stacyhs]

Killing organizers of terrorists, those at the top who expect not only to survive but to prosper, actually is an effective way to discouraging those terrorists.

Again, I make no claims as to the effectiveness of this particular action, and I would be ecstatic if Trump was immediately dragged out his office in chains, but what he said was not wrong. Not every terrorist is a front-line fighter or suicide bomber, and targeting the people encouraging, training, and funding those people is a worthwhile aim.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. Taking out Soleimani will not discourage terrorists, but encourage them. Revenge is a solidly entrenched matter of honor in Islamic culture.

 

[Babbylonian]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. Taking out Soleimani will not discourage terrorists, but encourage them. Revenge is a solidly entrenched matter of honor in Islamic culture.

You might be right. However, if it was part of a systematic attack on terrorist sponsors, it might do some good. The main problem, though, is that the Saudi Arabian royal family would need to be investigated, targeted, and killed to make any serious headway.

 

[Stacyhs]

You might be right. However, if it was part of a systematic attack on terrorist sponsors, it might do some good. The main problem, though, is that the Saudi Arabian royal family would need to be investigated, targeted, and killed to make any serious headway.

Agreed. And we know that ain't gonna happen! And Khashoggi.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

If government-approved clandestine ops (recall that a lot of our supra-national assumption battlefield declaration is based on the whole stateless terrorist idea) are now capable of being called terrorism, well, just watch Scahill's Dirty Wars.

If we're setting the tone that this is a valid rationalization for state-to-state hostility (just for us, though, right?), we're going to pay the piper on this one some day.

ETA: It also occurs to me that we get to declare where is a battlefield at any moment, all of the people there are "combatants" unless proven otherwise unless we take someone away from that battlefield and then, well oh actually they aren't a combatant, nooo siree. Nice gig if you can get it.

 

[Aridas]

Apparently Trump does not understand the concept of martyrdom. He doesn't understand the idea of being willing to die for a belief or principle.

ETA: Trebuchet beat me to it.

...That likely plays into his stance on torture. Torture would fairly certainly be an extremely effective method to get him to squeal, in short.

I did.
If there is anybody I depise more then Trump voters, it's the "Progressives" who did not vote or threw away their vote on Jill Stein because their Great God Bernie did not get the Democratic nomination.

Why them? Why not the much larger share of Democrats that voted for Trump or generally just did not vote? Why single out "progressives?" Are you buying way too much into the moderates vs. progressives narrative that the corporate media is playing up?

Going a bit further, while I did consider voting for Stein (still not sorry that I voted for Hillary), I don't think that I ever saw her as a progressive or especially aligned with them.

Pretty much where I stand. I think Trump's actions have been incredibly stupid, but I can't support the religious fanatics who control Iran. Sadly, they have managed to fool a number of people by portraying themselves as "Anti Imperialists" a stance which a number of people are suckers for.

Ehh, you're hardly alone. Trump's actions deserve massive criticism, but the criticisms that I've seen aren't even remotely supportive of the current Iranian leaders.

 

[Segnosaur]

May all Trump supporters show the class that this man has!

From: https://hillreporter.com/right-wing...ers-to-greta-thunberg-as-thunder-thighs-55163
(Greta) Thunberg has been often been criticized by conservative news sites as a liberal pawn. On Tuesday, right-wing radio pundit Sebastian Gorka mocked the young girls appearance by referring to her as “thunder-thighs.”

And remember, Gorka is not just some random Right-wing nutcase... he was a former adviser to Trump. (Plus, there's the whole "neo-Nazi" thing.)

I wonder what's more questionable:

- That his concern is not over the issue of global warming, but the physical appearance of an activist

- That he's commenting on the appearance of a girl that is underage

- That he is so insulting of a woman's appearance (who appears to be nothing but a rather average-looking teenager) but never commented at all about Trump, who is clearly overweight, has a bad comb-over, and were he shorter, would look like he belongs in Willy Wonka's factory

Yes, many political satirists make jokes about the appearance of various politicans. But Gorka was supposed to be a 'serious' adviser. You would expect a little more gravitas from him. (And the appearance of an underage girl should not be fodder for anyone's jokes.)