Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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It's only confusing if you buy into the transactivist narrative that the squares cannot comprehend the problem, and need to be told how to think by their queer betters.

Uh? I'm not familiar with that narrative, and I don't follow why buying into it would make one confused by a trans man giving birth or a trans woman having donated sperm. I also don't know what "the problem" is referring to.
 
Uh? I'm not familiar with that narrative, and I don't follow why buying into it would make one confused by a trans man giving birth or a trans woman having donated sperm. I also don't know what "the problem" is referring to.
Classic projection. The side against constantly use language of ridicule ("confused", "mental disorder", et al). They therefore see a different opinion as implicitly suggesting the same back.
 
Uh? I'm not familiar with that narrative, and I don't follow why buying into it would make one confused by a trans man giving birth or a trans woman having donated sperm. I also don't know what "the problem" is referring to.

It's really just a problem with semantics. (i.e. the study of meaning.)

If you say, "A man can give birth", then the word "man" loses any meaning it may once have had.
 
It's really just a problem with semantics. (i.e. the study of meaning.)

If you say, "A man can give birth", then the word "man" loses any meaning it may once have had.

Not that I agree with you, but I said "trans man", as did the headline.. Are you opposed to referring to trans men as trans men?
 
Uh? I'm not familiar with that narrative, and I don't follow why buying into it would make one confused by a trans man giving birth or a trans woman having donated sperm. I also don't know what "the problem" is referring to.

It's probably not fair for me to tell you to read the entire thread, and enter the conversation with full awareness of the state of play.

But by the same token, it's probably not fair for you to complain about not knowing the state of play, if you haven't read the thread yet.
 
It's really just a problem with semantics. (i.e. the study of meaning.)



If you say, "A man can give birth", then the word "man" loses any meaning it may once have had.
What a hopelessly fragile form of identity, then. Especially given that it purports to speak to resilience and rigor when faced with adversity.
 
Not that I agree with you, but I said "trans man", as did the headline.. Are you opposed to referring to trans men as trans men?

No. That's the jargon I use as well, but I also agree with the title of the thread.
 
It doesn't purport to do anything, other than to define a word.
Not sure why a change in one aspect of that word means all other aspects of it lose meaning.

That does not follow.

ETA: this is the trans discussion version of the "sanctity of marriage" defense. A purely emotional appeal.
 
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It's probably not fair for me to tell you to read the entire thread, and enter the conversation with full awareness of the state of play.

I'd say that's accurate.

But by the same token, it's probably not fair for you to complain about not knowing the state of play, if you haven't read the thread yet.

I didn't complain about not knowing the state of play, I stated that I was unfamiliar with a specific narrative you described.
 
What a hopelessly fragile form of identity, then. Especially given that it purports to speak to resilience and rigor when faced with adversity.

Definitions of words are not the same thing as forms of identity. Your attempt to conflate them is dishonest.
 
Not sure why a change in one aspect of that word means all other aspects of it lose meaning.

That does not follow.

ETA: this is the trans discussion version of the "sanctity of marriage" defense. A purely emotional appeal.

Quite so: insisting that trans men be called men is a purely emotional appeal. The entire purpose is explicitly to make certain people feel better, not to increase linguistic accuracy.
 
What are the extra protections and legal status that women have as compared to men?

Aye there's the rub.

Well, there's the right to use women's restrooms, locker rooms, compete in women's sports, some scholarships are for women, there are shelters for abused women, and in some cases there may be affirmative action programs for women.

Many of these issues are about conventional social or contractual arrangements rather than legal rights (in the sense of anti-discrimination law) at least here in the U.S.

Collegiate sports are another matter, since there Title IXWP does convey legal rights.
 
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It's really just a problem with semantics. (i.e. the study of meaning.)

If you say, "A man can give birth", then the word "man" loses any meaning it may once have had.
What meaning would that be then?

It has been long accepted in mainstream society that a person can be a biologically male adult and yet not a man.

Why is it such a stretch then to suppose that a person can be biologically female and also a man?
 
What meaning would that be then?

It has been long accepted in mainstream society that a person can be a biologically male adult and yet not a man.

Why is it such a stretch then to suppose that a person can be biologically female and also a man?

Your reasoning seems flawed to me.

Under some uses of the word, it was said that a person who is capable of producing sperm might not have some other necessary condition to be a man.

Therefore, you reason, a person who cannot produce sperm might be a man.

So, it seems that by some uses of the word, there are at least two necessary conditions to be a man, but since there are at least two, then a person who lacks one of them might still be a man? That's poor logic.



If you've followed these threads, you know this is all old ground. Whether phrased as definitions, or as necessary and sufficient conditions, or what have you, no one can provide me any definition of a man that includes men who can have babies, and which isn't a circular definition.

It always seems that in the end, those who try end up saying that arguments about definition are stupid, or that all definitions are circular because you have to use words to define words. It's sophomoric, but it happens.
 
What meaning would that be then?

It has been long accepted in mainstream society that a person can be a biologically male adult and yet not a man.

Why is it such a stretch then to suppose that a person can be biologically female and also a man?

It actually is a bit weird how trans men going to be men are kind of "all good dude. Whatever"

But trans women are kind of frowned upon

Most of it seems to come from women though.
 
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It actually is a bit weird how trans men going to be men are kind of "all good dude. Whatever"

But trans women are kind of frowned upon

Most of it seems to come from women though.

Cultural limits apply to acceptance levels. Bible belt America compared to San Fran or NYC may make it quite different how any trans is treated.
There are still parts of the world where birth defects and deviance are treated harshly.

That doesn't make it right to be inhuman to people in my beliefs. My beliefs change nothing of those cultures in any way.
 
Your reasoning seems flawed to me.

Under some uses of the word, it was said that a person who is capable of producing sperm might not have some other necessary condition to be a man.

Therefore, you reason, a person who cannot produce sperm might be a man.
I reasoned that??? When exactly??? I don't recall saying anything about sperm or necessary conditions.

Maybe you should stick to what I did say rather than making up some nonsense and attributing it to me.

Making up nonsense and pretending someone said it is definitely bad reasoning.
 
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I reasoned that??? When exactly??? I don't recall saying anything about sperm or necessary conditions.

Maybe you should stick to what I did say rather than making up some nonsense and attributing it to me.

Making up nonsense and pretending someone said it is definitely bad reasoning.

You stated that a person who is biologically female can be a man. From which it directly follows that a person who can not produce sperm can be a man. So yes, you've reasoned exactly that.
 
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