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Did Epstein run a World Satanic Ring?

Vixen said:
… it is fair to assume the figure runs into many dozens more, possibly hundreds, than are known about.
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So your question was where are the hundreds of anonymous teen girls assumed to have been abused but about whom nothing is known?

Do you have reason to believe some number of them are missing?

First comes denial.
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Denial of what?
 
Vixen said:
Interesting article
Some will recall Stone was convicted of perjury amongst other things:

There was a huge live media presence when Stone was arrested, together with armed police and helicopters.

So compare and contrast that with Epstein:

Amazing difference in treatment, huh?
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I have bad news for you. You're knowledge of US Laws and Law Enforcement is nonexistent. This worthless article compares the first time Epstein was taken into custody with Roger Stone's arrest. Stone was high profile, Epstein was not.

Compare this to his SECOND arrest in New York this year:

A task force of federal agents and New York City police officers met the plane at Teterboro Airport and took Epstein into custody, law enforcement officials said. He is being held at the Metropolitan Correctional Center, a federal jail near the Manhattan courthouse where he is due to appear on Monday.
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He got no warning this time and the media wasn't tipped off because he has many friends in said media and the fact that he has a private jet makes him a flight risk.

Rich people get treated better than poor folk by law enforcement in the US, unless they're jerks (like Roger Stone, who needed the fear of God put in him). Just ask Patty Hearst. Money buys great lawyers who face off against local district attorneys or Federal Prosecutors who have limited budgets and often fight them to a draw. The Gulf States have low standards for who ends up on their Federal benches as the appointment of Judges has always been more of a political payoff for delivering the state's votes to current the President and less about competency.

None of this has to do with Satan.
 
Vixen said:
snipped

You can scoff but we rock fans know the truth.
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I'll address both of your fact free posts regarding RJ.

First, the above bolded. What's with this "we" nonsense? I began attending concerts in 1968 and began my musical journey in 1969. I've played rock. jazz, country (twice) soul and funk. I ran away from music and joined the military but to this day I'm still a musician and I get a guitar or bass in my hands every day I'm not in a hospital or otherwise incapacitated.

Whether you're interested or not, these are some of the threads I've started or participated in involving music and musical instruments:

Show us your guitar thread. My first post, scroll further down for pics of my guitarist and inside our studio:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7965672&postcount=44

My most recent guitar project thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=322685

Installing a Bigsby on a Les Paul:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=315479

Death of Lonnie Mack:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306285

Death of Rick Stevens, Tower of Power vocalist:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=322821

Death of Joey Alves, founding member of Yesterday and Today (Y & T)

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317760

There's more, but reasonable individuals might come to the conclusion that I might know what I'm talking about wrt music and musicians.

Here's the deal.

In this thread, you've made a series of assertions about satan worship and attempted to suggest that various personalities would have had to been involved in satanic circles to get where they were. In the particular instance of Robert Johnson, you parroted a myth that originated over 30 years after RJ's death that was at best 2nd hand hearsay. When pressed, you came up with nothing more than a list detailing your personal interpretation of RJ's lyrics.

When a professional musician or lyricist sits down to write, one of the principles involved is the commercial aspect of their material -would these lyrics grab a listener? is there something in the content that hits on a subject or situation that may have relevance for the listener? The classic example of the basic "boy meets girl" as inspiration for great pop songs is the best example I can think of.

In the 1930's, a black bluesman in the south is not going to have a frame of reference reflecting white popular music themes. The material that comes to mind is loss, sorrow, grief and anger. Man going to beat his woman? he's doing the devil's work - that doesn't mean he's a devil or sold his soul to the devil, it means he knows he's doing wrong. Listen to the music that RJ's bluesman contemporary's wrote and there's plenty of references to the devil.

Your innuendo about RJ and others is the finished product of the snakes you have in your head, not what was in Robert Johnson's mind.
 
BStrong said:
I'll address both of your fact free posts regarding RJ.

First, the above bolded. What's with this "we" nonsense? I began attending concerts in 1968 and began my musical journey in 1969. I've played rock. jazz, country (twice) soul and funk. I ran away from music and joined the military but to this day I'm still a musician and I get a guitar or bass in my hands every day I'm not in a hospital or otherwise incapacitated.

Whether you're interested or not, these are some of the threads I've started or participated in involving music and musical instruments:

Show us your guitar thread. My first post, scroll further down for pics of my guitarist and inside our studio:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7965672&postcount=44

My most recent guitar project thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=322685

Installing a Bigsby on a Les Paul:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=315479

Death of Lonnie Mack:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306285

Death of Rick Stevens, Tower of Power vocalist:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=322821

Death of Joey Alves, founding member of Yesterday and Today (Y & T)

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317760

There's more, but reasonable individuals might come to the conclusion that I might know what I'm talking about wrt music and musicians.

Here's the deal.

In this thread, you've made a series of assertions about satan worship and attempted to suggest that various personalities would have had to been involved in satanic circles to get where they were. In the particular instance of Robert Johnson, you parroted a myth that originated over 30 years after RJ's death that was at best 2nd hand hearsay. When pressed, you came up with nothing more than a list detailing your personal interpretation of RJ's lyrics.

When a professional musician or lyricist sits down to write, one of the principles involved is the commercial aspect of their material -would these lyrics grab a listener? is there something in the content that hits on a subject or situation that may have relevance for the listener? The classic example of the basic "boy meets girl" as inspiration for great pop songs is the best example I can think of.

In the 1930's, a black bluesman in the south is not going to have a frame of reference reflecting white popular music themes. The material that comes to mind is loss, sorrow, grief and anger. Man going to beat his woman? he's doing the devil's work - that doesn't mean he's a devil or sold his soul to the devil, it means he knows he's doing wrong. Listen to the music that RJ's bluesman contemporary's wrote and there's plenty of references to the devil.

Your innuendo about RJ and others is the finished product of the snakes you have in your head, not what was in Robert Johnson's mind.
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Yeah, I get that people like to find a 'rational' explanation for the inexplicible.

Oh, he was just this, or he was just that.

Of course it's only a rock'n roll myth, popular thanks to the likes of Eric Clapton. However, Faustian pacts are well-known throughout history so people obviously enter into them whether or not it is true and whether or not any such thing is possible.

Think of the world's oldest profession. Now think of the second oldest.

#1: the woman who sells her body for money. It's called 'prostitution' and when people pander to public taste for fame and fortune, we call it 'selling out' (=prostitution)


#2: the man or woman who performs for money. Yes, that's right the entertainer: actors, singers, acrobats, clowns.


Put one and two together and you have an artiste who is deeply talented who then uses this talent to make money. Heck, I'm an accountant. No-one wants to pay good money to watch me working. It will kill most conversations.

So, imagine singing, playing comes as natural to you as walking or having curly hair. How great is it to have people wanting to pay you for it.

Robert Johnson like many in his demographic had a burning desire to be a bluesman. He joined up with another person with the same desire and practised with him (Zimmerman) in various graveyards because it was peaceful with few people around. So one can see where the idea of spooky hellish figures came to be associated with him amongst his peers. A record producer invited him to Texas to record some tracks. This must have been a phenomenal inspiration to Johnson to compose and perfect his repertoire of numbers performed as an itinerant performer (in the best tradition of seventeenth century French clowns and mime artists). Think about it. He got to Texas and got to have just two takes. No overdubbing and adding bits over other bits. He had to play everything straight from memory with just one second chance.

The fact he remained relatively unknown until Eric Clapton et al started spouting off about him and getting rich on his style - as did The Rolling Stones with Love in Vain - some thirty years later does not diminish his accomplishment in any way. Yes, in some ways he was just another clown ramblin' around trying to eke out an existence from his own art in other ways, yes his legacy is almost supernatural, as it is for other geniuses who turn up seemingly randomly in every age (Plato, Shakespeare, Bobby Fisher, Beethoven, Bach) and all we mere mortals can do is stand and stare.

Yes, we know it is 1% inspiration and 99% bloody hard work, blood sweat and tears, but let's not knock it, OK?
 
Axxman300 said:
I have bad news for you. You're knowledge of US Laws and Law Enforcement is nonexistent. This worthless article compares the first time Epstein was taken into custody with Roger Stone's arrest. Stone was high profile, Epstein was not.

Compare this to his SECOND arrest in New York this year:



He got no warning this time and the media wasn't tipped off because he has many friends in said media and the fact that he has a private jet makes him a flight risk.

Rich people get treated better than poor folk by law enforcement in the US, unless they're jerks (like Roger Stone, who needed the fear of God put in him). Just ask Patty Hearst. Money buys great lawyers who face off against local district attorneys or Federal Prosecutors who have limited budgets and often fight them to a draw. The Gulf States have low standards for who ends up on their Federal benches as the appointment of Judges has always been more of a political payoff for delivering the state's votes to current the President and less about competency.

None of this has to do with Satan.
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Well, maybe Keith Raniere, who was charged and found guilty of sex trafficking and forced labour (slavery) earlier this year is a better comparison than Roger Stone.

You may or may not know, Raniere was the founder and leader of a 'self help' organisation called NXIVM, which many have identified as a cult, which included at its heart a ring of female sex slaves (some underage) serving their master, Raniere, who called himself Vanguard. He and his accomplices, targetted the wealthy and vulnerable 'looking for meaning in life'.

Now - and this is true of Epstein - the state is loathe to prosecute on the grounds of running a cult because how do you prove it? Establishing that people were in a cult and made to do degrading things can be difficult if those same persons were the ones who willingly signed up for it. So, what is the solution? The State Attorney uses charges of sex trafficking instead and steers well clear of describing cultism, occultism and so-called 'satanic practice'

So all you will ever see described on the charge sheet is a mundane count of sex trafficking. Yet when you read details of what Raniere and his ring got up to, it is really horrific.

By focusing on human trafficking statutes and by arguing sexual or financial gain was central to Nxivm, prosecutors may have avoided a problem in cases against alleged cults: the difficulty of proving illegality around issues of consent and mind control.

“Cults grab headlines,” said Robin Boyle-Laisure, a law professor at St John’s University who has written extensively on cults. “But there’s nothing illegal about a cult. What can be illegal are the crimes these type of organisations can commit, including in this case the statutory rape of a minor.”

The existence of a cult around Raniere, Boyle-Laisure said, would not necessarily mean that a wellness group like Nxivm, which tapped into modern obsessions such as wellness, celebrity, affluence and thinness, was inherently dangerous.
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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ial-keith-raniere-verdict-guilty-allison-mack

The other parallel to Epstein is that Raniere and his chums havestill not been sentenced despite having been found guilty nine months ago.
 
Vixen said:
Well, maybe Keith Raniere, who was charged and found guilty of sex trafficking and forced labour (slavery) earlier this year is a better comparison than Roger Stone.

You may or may not know, Raniere was the founder and leader of a 'self help' organisation called NXIVM, which many have identified as a cult, which included at its heart a ring of female sex slaves (some underage) serving their master, Raniere, who called himself Vanguard. He and his accomplices, targetted the wealthy and vulnerable 'looking for meaning in life'.

Now - and this is true of Epstein - the state is loathe to prosecute on the grounds of running a cult because how do you prove it? Establishing that people were in a cult and made to do degrading things can be difficult if those same persons were the ones who willingly signed up for it. So, what is the solution? The State Attorney uses charges of sex trafficking instead and steers well clear of describing cultism, occultism and so-called 'satanic practice'

So all you will ever see described on the charge sheet is a mundane count of sex trafficking. Yet when you read details of what Raniere and his ring got up to, it is really horrific.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ial-keith-raniere-verdict-guilty-allison-mack

The other parallel to Epstein is that Raniere and his chums havestill not been sentenced despite having been found guilty nine months ago.
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I know all about Raniere.

None of this has anything to do with Satan.
 
Vixen said:
Interesting article here, comparing and contrasting the treatment of Roger Stone to that of Jeffrey Epstein:

Some will recall Stone was convicted of perjury amongst other things:



<snip>




There was a huge live media presence when Stone was arrested, together with armed police and helicopters.



So compare and contrast that with Epstein:



Amazing difference in treatment, huh?
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Amazing lack of any reference to Satanism huh?
 
Vixen said:
The Catholic priests who abused young boys were/are hardly sincere Christians as the New Testament doesn't like that type of thing. ;)
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I don't see any reason to believe they weren't sincere Christians.
 
Vixen said:
Yeah, I get that people like to find a 'rational' explanation for the inexplicible. snipped extraneous jive
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The above bolded sums up the core problem with your premise.

RJ couldn't have possibly woodshedded till he could play, the debil had to be involved! It's inexplicable!

Because you have a personal default position that individuals are controlled by or influenced by satan and in return are rewarded with (whatever) makes reality inexplicable to you. I have no doubt that the use of the word "woodshedding" wrt music isn't in your vocabulary, and having seen the lengths you're willing to go to support a premise unsupportable by any evidence past your delusional belief in myth, I believe that further discussion would be a waste of energy
 
Epstein's death has been ruled a likely homicide by his brother, Mark's, privately hired pathologist, Dr. Baden. On a tv show, Dr Baden claimed that (a) the body should not have been removed from the cell without a forensic sweep first (for example, this could be a series of photographs from various angles for signs of a struggle), (b) that there were fractures on either side of Epstein's neck one on either side of the larynx just above the Adam's apple and the third in the hyoid bone, and (c) that in all his years in practice he had never seen this phenomena in a death by hanging suicide victim.

Baden released images from Jeffrey Epstein's autopsy during a bombshell interview with Fox and Friends in early November, discrediting the New York City Medical Examiner's Office ruling of suicide by hanging.

The pathologist - who has worked on cases involving OJ Simpson, President John F Kennedy, Phil Spector, Aaron Hernandez and more - described how the 66-year-old financier had two fractures - one on the left and another on the right sides of his larynx, around the Adam's apple.

Epstein also had a fracture on the left hyoid bone that is above the Adam's apple, Baden explained.

'Those three fractures are extremely unusual in suicidal hangings and could occur much more commonly in homicidal strangulation,' Baden said, adding that signs of a possible homicide had been evident from 'day one' of the autopsy.

'I've not seen in 50 years where that occurred in a suicidal hanging case,' he said.
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Counter to that, a prison inmate claims to have heard Epstein ripping up the sheets. However, neither did he have a cellmate, as is customary in suicide attempts.

Baden described that a person weighing 120lbs - with a head weight of 10lbs - would have 110lbs of pressure on their neck at the jaw during a hanging. However, the pathologist described that double or triple the pressure could be applied to the neck if a person was to squeeze.

He added that there were also hemorrhages in Epstein's eyes that were consistent in homicide strangulation yet uncommon - but not unheard of - in strangulation cases.

'The prominent hemorrhage in the soft tissues of the neck next to the fractures is evidence of a fresh neck compression that could have caused the death,' he said.
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It seems fair enough to ask for a second examination to rule out D Baden's theory that if there was a killer applying pressure, then his DNA would be all over the sheet involved.

State pathologist Dr Sampson, stands by her conclusion of suicide by hanging.

ISTM that if, as Dr Baden claims, it was likely a homicide, then that presents an interesting question. Who could have done this without being challenged?
 
Vixen said:
Epstein's death has been ruled a likely homicide by his brother, Mark's, privately hired pathologist, Dr. Baden. On a tv show, Dr Baden claimed that (a) the body should not have been removed from the cell without a forensic sweep first (for example, this could be a series of photographs from various angles for signs of a struggle), (b) that there were fractures on either side of Epstein's neck one on either side of the larynx just above the Adam's apple and the third in the hyoid bone, and (c) that in all his years in practice he had never seen this phenomena in a death by hanging suicide victim.



Counter to that, a prison inmate claims to have heard Epstein ripping up the sheets. However, neither did he have a cellmate, as is customary in suicide attempts.



It seems fair enough to ask for a second examination to rule out D Baden's theory that if there was a killer applying pressure, then his DNA would be all over the sheet involved.

State pathologist Dr Sampson, stands by her conclusion of suicide by hanging.

ISTM that if, as Dr Baden claims, it was likely a homicide, then that presents an interesting question. Who could have done this without being challenged?
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Whoever it was, the devil made him do it.
 
It almost-certainly was not a homicide.

It almost-certainly was the product of:

a) a man who knew he was highly likely to spend at least the majority of the rest of his life in prison;

b) a man who therefore was near-certain that his glamorous lifestile, wealth and social connections were almost-forever to be swapped for prison clothing and a 15ft by 8ft cell;

c) a man who knew that his reputation was now without doubt going to be eternally ruined;

d) a man who had previously attempted suicide while in custody (can't remember whether once or twice);

e) laziness on the part of - and inadequate higher-level oversight of - the custodial personnel* who were supposed to have been checking on Epstein extremely frequently (precisely because Epstein was judged to be a suicide risk....);

f) Epstein having the materials at hand to fashion a noose**; and

g) Epstein therefore having the means, the motive, and the opportunity to kill himself.


On top of all of that, frankly nobody else could even have had the opportunity, let alone the means, to kill Epstein. To begin with, for that to to have happened would necessarily have involved a conspiracy, ranging from a small conspiracy among the detention centre officials, all the way up to a pretty massive conspiracy. Furthermore, there was (IIRC) plenty of CCTV surveillance within this detention centre. And lastly, it's very difficult to imagine that none of the other occupants of the detention centre would have heard anything untoward: given that no narcotic/paralytic drugs were apparently found in Epstein's body, this therefore implies that he would have had to be forcibly restrained while "being suicided" by these one or more killers.


* This unfortunately is a common theme in prison staffing, on account of it being an unpleasant, undervalued and very low-paid job/career; this consequently attracts a much higher-than-normal proportion of low-grade applicants, and ensures that the bar is set very low for acceptances (since if that were not the case, there would simply be a huge shortage in prison/corrective staff...). That being said though, I still find it astonishing that in the case of Epstein - who after all was at that point one of the highest-profile people in custody in the USA (if not the World), and who was a known suicide risk - there wouldn't have been an over-and-above effort put in to assign highly-trained and highly-dedicated corrective staff officials to watch over him diligently and properly.

** Things could - and probably should - have been very different in Epstein's case. I believe, for example, that in England&Wales custody cells, it's the norm not to provide the detained person with anything that could be used as a noose: shoelaces and belts are removed, and only a blanket (and no sheets) is provided; in addition, there is never anywhere in the cell from which a person could suspend themselves, even if they did somehow manage to fashion a noose. And given the combination of Epstein's high profile and his suicidal tendencies, I'd have thought that every effort should have been taken to minimise the chance of him being able to asphyxiate himself.
 
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Vixen said:
ISTM that if, as Dr Baden claims, it was likely a homicide, then that presents an interesting question. Who could have done this without being challenged?
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That would be a short list, shorter if you omit Batman, Superman, and Satan due to their fictional status.

This was the same federal lockup that held El Chapo throughout his trial, and there is a LARGE army of people who want him dead.

The "assassin" would have to:

1. Enter the building, presumably undetected and unseen on the exterior cameras.

2. Somehow be buzzed into the interior access points.

3. Open the cell door.

4. Kill Epstein by using whatever he found in the cell while Epstein patiently waited.

5. Lock the cell door.

6. Get buzzed back through the various access points.

7. Exit the building unseen.

Not to mention talking a half dozen guard into going to prison for looking the other way.
 
The only way Epstein could have been killed would have been at his own request - which I find a very plausible scenario: if I was that rich and my death seemed like the only escape, I wouldn't want to do it myself, I would like to leave it to a professional.
 
Axxman300 said:
That would be a short list, shorter if you omit Batman, Superman, and Satan due to their fictional status.

This was the same federal lockup that held El Chapo throughout his trial, and there is a LARGE army of people who want him dead.

The "assassin" would have to:

1. Enter the building, presumably undetected and unseen on the exterior cameras.

2. Somehow be buzzed into the interior access points.

3. Open the cell door.

4. Kill Epstein by using whatever he found in the cell while Epstein patiently waited.

5. Lock the cell door.

6. Get buzzed back through the various access points.

7. Exit the building unseen.

Not to mention talking a half dozen guard into going to prison for looking the other way.
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Massive coincidence then that just days beforehand Epstein was moved to a cell by himself (when he was a known would-be suicide), the prison staff were preoccupied with surfing the net and having a nap and are now taking the rap and the head guy suspended. That the wannabe suicide facing many years in prison is supplied with easily rippable sheets and somewhere to hook it in order to top himself.

Now imagine Epstein was a Mossad/CIA stooge (just an agent being used and funded by them), then he is immediately expendable once his cover is blown. Spies have a licence to kill with impunity so as soon as the prison staff are seen to be (or are observed to have been over a long period) failing to do their proper rounds throughout the night, secret intelligence services would easily have access to him.

If this sounds far-fetched, then you should be aware the CIA was involved in the Finders cult, which also involved sexual abuse of minors. A couple of men seen with six dishevelled young children, who were dirty, had no underwear and all of them appeared to be living in a van with a dirty mattress and reported to the police, were identified as Finders members. The punchline? The travel documents of one of them showed he had travelled to (amongst other far off places) North Vietnam, which only intelligence service members were given travel documentation access to. This information has recently come out of classified and into the public domain.

There is also a link to Sara Bronfman who is awaiting tough sentencing for her role in the sex-trafficking ring NXIVM. Her father, Edward (multibillionaire of the Seagram empire - who became rich flogging alcohol from Canada during the US prohibition years - was a close friend of alleged Mossad agent, Robert Maxwell, the father of Epstein's sex-procurer, Ghislaine Maxwell, and has a ranch within six miles of Epstein's New Mexico Zorro ranch, both set in a semi-arrid desert literally isolated for many many miles around.

Then there is the link to the family massacred in Mexico recently via LaBarron and a school for exceptional children to which NXIVM supplied pupils and procured sex slaves from by claiming to offer jobs as nannies and in-house carers for young women wanting to escape poverty and being shackled in various dodgy Finders-type communes.

This is a massive teenage-sex-ring conspiracy. NXIVM certainly was satanic (or quasi-satanic) with its latinised names (DOS), rules, rituals, sex slavery and brandings by fire.
 
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