Cont: House Impeachment Inquiry - part 2

[acbytesla]

Sure, but it's irrelevant to the impeachment clause. Soliciting foreign interference is a much more clear cut violation of Trump's oath of office, and it is the go-to example of why impeachment is in the constitution in the first place. That Trump solicited foreign interference by withholding funds that weren't his to withhold to a country that needed them to fight off military invasion by one of Trump's allies (puppetmasters?) makes it morally worse, but it's not a necessary component for this being a violation.

Agreed 100 percent. It's bribery, it's extortion, it's blackmail, it's abuse of power, it's obstruction. It doesn't really matter what label you put on it. The question is, was it right for the President to blackmail a foreign leader to smear his political opponent?

There doesn't have to be an underlying crime although there clearly was. Remember when Trump took office and more than a few pundits suggested that he would become Presidential? I remember laughing at that notion. But I did have hope which of course was squashed almost immediately. The opposite has happened. Trump has dragged the entire Republican party down to his level. Dishonesty and Deception even over the most obvious facts.

But the good news is that Pelosi is unlikely to ever send the articles of impeachment to the Senate. Trump will remain an impeached President forever and never one to be acquitted as McConnell had planned.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

STRONGLY disagree.

It already is. See Trump's tweet a couple of posts above yours.

If it went quickly to the Senate and Trump was acquitted in a day or so, that would feed into the narrative of a weak case because “there wasn’t even a crime” and that they rightfully dismissed the case out of hand. A narrative already broadcast by numerous congressmen yesterday and echoed by McConnell and Graham on the Senate side.

That's going to happen anyway. Delaying the Articles won't change that at all. It'll only mean that it has happened after the Democrats have done something that harms how the public perceive them.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I disagree. The danger for the Democrats is just assuming everyone will turn out to vote against Trump, and not bothering to remind them why they should. The impeachment process has left Trump writing insane manifestos and the Trumpers hatefully circling the wagons in clear defiance of democratic ideals, and that's a motivating force you don't want going to waste.

...

Okay I'm hesitant to do this since I kind of get the "I demand you metaphysically prove your opinion as you how you're reading the landscape and why it differs from mine" response it's gonna get but...

Everyone (within a statistical amount worrying about) who hates Trump is already there. At the very best there's some very slight margins we could adjust a little with a lot of effort, but the core minds are made up.

I know whether or not I'm voting for Trump. You know whether or not you're voting for Trump. Everyone who cares enough to be involved in the discourse already knows, even if they lie about it, whether they are gonna vote for Trump. Trump's not an unknown variable in that sense.

If there is some huge statistically meaningful group of swayable people out there; fence sitters, independents, whatevers... it's people who need someone to vote for, not someone to vote against and that's all we've been handed. "Not Trumps." Yes I very, very much want a "Not Trump" no arguments, Orange Man Bad, I know, don't need to be reminded of or sold on that concept. But that's all I have. "Not Trumps."

Outside of some vague personal preferences that aren't deal breakers and the raw, unavoidable fact of having to vote strategically (which just makes me feel awful) all the "Not Trumps" are the same plate of boiled white rice where they used a little too much water, not enough to ruin it but enough you notice.

I very passionate about not voting for Donald Trump. Outside of some insane scenario I cannot imagine I will vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is in 2020 because that will be the strongest "No Donald Trump" vote I'm capable of making.

I have zero passion (to be clear zero passion which is not the same thing as motivation) to vote for anyone else on the table right now and neither, really, does anyone else.

People are passionate about Warren, Sanders, Biden, etc... but, again within that same statistically meaningless margin of error, everyone who's really passionate about one them, is already equally or greaterly (that needs to be a word) passionate about "Not Trump."

You want to win in 2020? Give "us" (the general public) reason to be fired up and passionate about one of the candidates... that has nothing to do with the fact that they aren't Donald Trump.

And, as I said in the opening paragraph, before I get a wave "oH bUt you Can'T kNoW thAT!" from anyone... I can know it the same way and to the same level (g)you can know it's not true.

 

[plague311]

If I'm reading this thread correctly, no matter what the Democrats do it's all their fault? It's either their fault because:

a) They didn't list a crime
b) They're not pushing the articles up
c) They are pushing the articles up
d) Because.

That's the crux of this thread from what I can tell. There is absolutely no move at this point in time that the Dems can make that would work to their political advantage.

Talk about how ******* stupid this country is that we can't even remove someone that's committed crimes. No ******* wonder we're the laughing stock of the world. I'm embarrassed to even live here let alone pretend I'm represented by any of these dip ***** we have in office.

 

[JoeMorgue]

If I'm reading this thread correctly, no matter what the Democrats do it's all their fault?

It's not a matter of blame/fault per se, at least not to me (I cannot speak for anyone else.)

I get, believe it or not, how sick must be by now of hearing me go on about this and I am trying (trying I said, I'm only human) to find ways to getting what I'm trying to say across in different ways.

It's matter of just world idealism. Trump is not going to away just because that's how it should work if the world was fair.

"Okay but shelving 'moral duties' and 'well this is how it should go if the rules were being follow' what is the actual on the table plan that accounts for what force is actually going to make the plan happen" is not the same thing as laying blame.

I'm not fanboy for the Democratic Party, but I do respect that... this is not a scenario anyone could reasonably expect them to have had a contingency plan already in place for.

This is gonna have to be Die Hard, not Mission Impossible.

 

[acbytesla]

It already is. See Trump's tweet a couple of posts above yours.

That's going to happen anyway. Delaying the Articles won't change that at all. It'll only mean that it has happened after the Democrats have done something that harms how the public perceive them.

WRONG! WRONG!! WRONG!!!

Trump will forevever be an impeached President. No way to spin that. A trial without witnesses is not a trial. Will Trump and the GOP try to spin it in the way you suggest? Probably. But the country knows it was going to be a sham trial. Best not allow them to put away their hypocrisy.

In the mean time, the House can keep gathering evidence. Those impeachment articles can be sent at any time. Best to hand the White House the bomb at the right moment or not at all.

 

[Paul2]

3. Hunter Biden's position with Burisma was heavily covered in the news media at the time, so it wasn't something that the Trump Administration just uncovered this summer. If there was a legitimate belief that Hunter and/or Joe did something illegal, the US would have:
(a) started its own investigation rather than asking Ukraine to start one;
(b) started it 2 years ago.

4. In the US, presidents don't normally get personally involved in criminal investigations, especially ones with political overtones.

5. In the US, presidents don't assign their PERSONAL attorneys to coordinate criminal investigations.

And finally,
6. The thought that a man who has engaged in numerous private business deals with foreign governments while serving as president (including getting dozens of trademarks from our biggest economic rival) and who recently got socked with a $2 million fine for misappropriating money from a charitable foundation is interested in rooting out corruption is laughable.

7. Trump has failed to express any interest in rooting out corruption in other countries.


8. Trump has expressed an interest in another country - China - not to root out corruption generally, but merely to investigate the Bidens.

 

[plague311]

It's not a matter of blame/fault per se, at least not to me (I cannot speak for anyone else.)

I get, believe it or not, how sick must be by now of hearing me go on about this and I am trying (trying I said, I'm only human) to find ways to getting what I'm trying to say across in different ways.

It's matter of just world idealism. Trump is not going to away just because that's how it should work if the world was fair.

"Okay but shelving 'moral duties' and 'well this is how it should go if the rules were being follow' what is the actual on the table plan that accounts for what force is actually going to make the plan happen" is not the same thing as laying blame.

I'm not fanboy for the Democratic Party, but I do respect that... this is not a scenario anyone could reasonably expect them to have had a contingency plan already in place for.

This is gonna have to be Die Hard, not Mission Impossible.

Yeah, I mean. You can package it in whatever wrapping paper you want but it's still the same ****. I get it, I understand. I just think it sucks.

On one side we have a guy that's broken a bunch of laws. Yet there's nothing we can do because we have to be concerned about ******* marketing.

It's just stupid, the country I live in is ridiculous

 

[JoeMorgue]

On one side we have a guy that's broken a bunch of laws. Yet there's nothing we can do because we have to be concerned about ******* marketing.

I share you frustration, believe me I do.

But, although I get what you are saying, I think "marketing" is a bad way (not wrong per se just bad) way of looking at it.

The Democrats keep looking around like they expect someone at any moment to ring the bell, stop the match, and declare them the winner because the Republicans are fighting so obviously dirty they have to be disqualified.

That's where we are at. Not... defeatism per se, at least not exactly (hopefully you can understand and respect that this stuff isn't exactly 100% easy to get into exact words) but this... continuing idea that at some point we are just going to be cosmically awarded for being the better.

In the past I've called the "Not understanding that a noble defeat and actual tangible win aren't the same thing" problem.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

WRONG! WRONG!! WRONG!!!

Shouting at me doesn't make me more likely to agree to your POV.

Trump will forevever be an impeached President.

This is already true, and will remain true no matter what else happens. Bill Clinton was acquitted in the Senate trial. Is that his legacy, or is impeachment by Congress his legacy?

Best not allow them to put away their hypocrisy.

How is allowing them to actually do it, as opposed to not allowing them to do it, allowing them to put it away?

In the mean time, the House can keep gathering evidence.

Rigged Witch Hunt! They want to drag the impeachment hearings out even after they've agreed to send the Articles to the Senate. Presidential Harassment!

But, really, if the point was to keep gathering evidence, then the correct move would have been to keep the hearings going, rather than finishing them, agreeing on the Articles of impeachment, voting to send them to the Senate, and then holding another vote to not send them to the Senate (which is the only way that it will happen.

 

[BrooklynBaby]

If I'm reading this thread correctly, no matter what the Democrats do it's all their fault? It's either their fault because:

a) They didn't list a crime
b) They're not pushing the articles up
c) They are pushing the articles up
d) Because.

That's the crux of this thread from what I can tell. There is absolutely no move at this point in time that the Dems can make that would work to their political advantage.

Talk about how ******* stupid this country is that we can't even remove someone that's committed crimes. No ******* wonder we're the laughing stock of the world. I'm embarrassed to even live here let alone pretend I'm represented by any of these dip ***** we have in office.

Well, the Democrats should not be surprised that their Star Chamber impeachment that resulted in articles that are crime-free was doomed to failure. This is a no-brainer. They were so desperate in the end they returned to the Russia Hoax. Now Piglosi is digging in her heels and throwing a hissy fit by not sending the articles to the Senate because she screwed up because she has nothing to show for her hyper-partisan indictment. No crime, no chance to win, and Trump will still be POTUS when the Durham results come in. Plus, as an added bonus for the GOP, she got almost all of those Trump district reps to vote for impeachment. None of them ran on that, obviously, and their districts will presumably choose more wisely in November. Trump is the big winner here. LOL.

 

[Paul2]

I share you frustration, believe me I do.

But, although I get what you are saying, I think "marketing" is a bad way (not wrong per se just bad) way of looking at it.

The Democrats keep looking around like they expect someone at any moment to ring the bell, stop the match, and declare them the winner because the Republicans are fighting so obviously dirty they have to be disqualified.

That's where we are at. Not... defeatism per se, at least not exactly (hopefully you can understand and respect that this stuff isn't exactly 100% easy to get into exact words) but this... continuing idea that at some point we are just going to be cosmically awarded for being the better.

In the past I've called the "Not understanding that a noble defeat and actual tangible win aren't the same thing" problem.

I think the problem for the Dems that makes them look like what you say is that they need to fight those who are fighting *so* dirty (politics has always been a dirty business, but Repubs are now setting the stage for a one-party system) without thoroughly debasing themselves. If they stoop completely down the level of the Repubs, then the Rebups win the larger fight because everyone is now thoroughly dirty. But you have to fight dirty to some extent if you expect to stay in the game with someone who's fighting dirty.

This is a tricky tightrope to walk.

 

[JoeMorgue]

"We can't put up an effective fight against Trump because we're the Democrats, celestial virgins as pure and white as the morning snow and can't sully ourselves to stoop to his level" is not... no. You can stoop. We've all seen you do it.

The Democrats are always too good to fight dirty... when they are already losing. I'm not going to watch the country go down the crapper because the Dems came down with a sudden onset case of the morals.

The Democrats have gotten their hands dirty for things a lot less important then one Donald J. Trumpinheimer and Esquire didn't lay awake at night worrying about how history would judge them or the votes they would lose then, so spare me.

We're not talking about anything illegal, immoral, or intellectually dishonest, we're just talking basic real world Realpolitik. Nobody is expecting them to go all Littlefinger on us but it would be nice if they could at least go Tyrion. But no they are stuck at Eddard Stark mode. And season 1 has already wrapped up filming.e.

Yes I know there are plenty of people who shall remain nameless just waiting in the wings for the Dems to play the first dirty trick so they can clutch their pearls so hard they'll turn into diamonds. Suck it up, politics is dirty.

 

[bobdroege7]

Well, the Democrats should not be surprised that their Star Chamber impeachment that resulted in articles that are crime-free was doomed to failure. This is a no-brainer. They were so desperate in the end they returned to the Russia Hoax. Now Piglosi is digging in her heels and throwing a hissy fit by not sending the articles to the Senate because she screwed up because she has nothing to show for her hyper-partisan indictment. No crime, no chance to win, and Trump will still be POTUS when the Durham results come in. Plus, as an added bonus for the GOP, she got almost all of those Trump district reps to vote for impeachment. None of them ran on that, obviously, and their districts will presumably choose more wisely in November. Trump is the big winner here. LOL.

They had no choice but to impeach Trump for refusing to allow witnesses to testify and refusing to answer subpoenas.

And in my opinion, Pelosi is going to hold the articles until the Dems get assurances that they will get those in the Senate trial.

And that's why all the Republicans say there is no crime is because there still is a massive cover up, by refusing to allow those involved to be deposed.

 

[Minoosh]

Trump is the big winner here. LOL.

Yet he's the one throwing a tantrum.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Yet he's the one throwing a tantrum.

Ever encounter a spoiled child? The behavior may stun and disgust everybody else but if the tantrums and whining get the parents to indulge it that child is indeed the victor. Getting what you want is the victory. Getting what you want despite the wishes of tons of people is an even bigger victory.

And success just encourages the behavior. Trump will get worse. The stuff he just got impeached for is nothing compared to what he'll get up to next.

 

[BrooklynBaby]

They had no choice but to impeach Trump for refusing to allow witnesses to testify and refusing to answer subpoenas.

And in my opinion, Pelosi is going to hold the articles until the Dems get assurances that they will get those in the Senate trial.

And that's why all the Republicans say there is no crime is because there still is a massive cover up, by refusing to allow those involved to be deposed.

The decision to impeach Trump came way before Trump quite legally and predictably invoked executive privilege. The House has zero say in the Senate trial, which is very clear in the Constitution. Pelosi is beating a dead horse, and gaining more experience doing so daily.

 

[Paul2]

"We can't put up an effective fight against Trump because we're the Democrats, celestial virgins as pure and white as the morning snow and can't sully ourselves to stoop to his level" is not... no. You can stoop. We've all seen you do it.

The Democrats are always too good to fight dirty... when they are already losing. I'm not going to watch the country go down the crapper because the Dems came down with a sudden onset case of the morals.

The Democrats have gotten their hands dirty for things a lot less important then one Donald J. Trumpinheimer and Esquire didn't lay awake at night worrying about how history would judge them or the votes they would lose then, so spare me.

We're not talking about anything illegal, immoral, or intellectually dishonest, we're just talking basic real world Realpolitik. Nobody is expecting them to go all Littlefinger on us but it would be nice if they could at least go Tyrion. But no they are stuck at Eddard Stark mode. And season 1 has already wrapped up filming.e.

Yes I know there are plenty of people who shall remain nameless just waiting in the wings for the Dems to play the first dirty trick so they can clutch their pearls so hard they'll turn into diamonds. Suck it up, politics is dirty.

Not sure if you're disagreeing with me, but here goes anyway:


It's not a question of merely fighting dirty, it's a question of not crossing an ill-defined line into being essentially corrupt. The line may be ill-defined, but we all know the Repubs are currently on the other side of that line, so it's still a useful line, hazy though it may be.

 

[acbytesla]

Well, the Democrats should not be surprised that their Star Chamber impeachment that resulted in articles that are crime-free was doomed to failure. This is a no-brainer. They were so desperate in the end they returned to the Russia Hoax. Now Piglosi is digging in her heels and throwing a hissy fit by not sending the articles to the Senate because she screwed up because she has nothing to show for her hyper-partisan indictment. No crime, no chance to win, and Trump will still be POTUS when the Durham results come in. Plus, as an added bonus for the GOP, she got almost all of those Trump district reps to vote for impeachment. None of them ran on that, obviously, and their districts will presumably choose more wisely in November. Trump is the big winner here. LOL.

If you think that was a star chamber you don't have a ******* clue what a star chamber is.

Your post epitomizes the nonsense lies that the GOP argues again and again. Can't find actual facts to support your argument? Irrelevant right? Believe your lies instead. I mean why deal with the facts, when you can make up your own reality?

But if you want to talk about Russia, we can. The dictator Putin said Trump did no wrong today. Funny isn't it? Never mind that Trump called on Russia to hack Clinton's email server and they did. Never mind that Trump's campaign manager, his deputy campaign manager and his son had a meeting to get dirt from the Russians. Never mind that Trump said publicly that he fired Comey because of the inquiry into Russian interference.

But this wasn't about Russia. It was about Trump extorting Ukraine to getting them to interfere in the 2020 election. And he did that with 391 million dollars of military aid to protect Ukraine from guess who? Russia! Funny how this always circle back to Trump's sugar daddy.

It's also about blatant obstruction of Congress. For a guy who swears he's innocent, he sure prevents everyone from finding out the truth.

 

[DetectedMotion]

Well, the Democrats should not be surprised that their Star Chamber impeachment that resulted in articles that are crime-free was doomed to failure. This is a no-brainer. They were so desperate in the end they returned to the Russia Hoax. Now Piglosi is digging in her heels and throwing a hissy fit by not sending the articles to the Senate because she screwed up because she has nothing to show for her hyper-partisan indictment. No crime, no chance to win, and Trump will still be POTUS when the Durham results come in. Plus, as an added bonus for the GOP, she got almost all of those Trump district reps to vote for impeachment. None of them ran on that, obviously, and their districts will presumably choose more wisely in November. Trump is the big winner here. LOL.

Democrats Star Chamber? That's laughable; I think you need to see that movie again. It's more like the Mitch Mickymouse Star chamber Senate collaborating with the accused Donald "Doesn't have your back" Trump to create a large miscarriage of justice once the articles of impeachment reach the Senate.
Trump is guilty and has been caught, but he really doesn't care about doing what's best for America except to cause division and disruption.
But your credibility has gone out the window because you are still calling the Russia thing a hoax when it's already a proven fact that it wasn't a hoax.
Trump is on display right now as a president obviously not worthy as a leader to bring this nation forward. He doesn't care about you unless you bow down, kiss his ass, and tell him how great he is.