Cont: House Impeachment Inquiry - part 2

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kookbreaker said:
I suspect Trump dictated the equivalent of a 40 page letter but almost all of it was rambling, incoherent, self pitying tripe. Someone at the White House did a massive super cut, changed the meter, cleaned it up, but left in his laughable ‘points’ so he would approve the final product.
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If that's true, the final version was read aloud to him. There's no chance he read it before scrawling his illiterate excuse for a signature on it
 
Grizzly Bear said:
He was adamant that someone should offer an alternative perspective so I bit the bullet and gave an angle on it. Take it or leave it. Theres not really any argument that trump didnt do anything wrong. But the impeachability of what he did hinges on intent. And the inquiry has made no effort on that distinction.

It's on the democrats to make their case regardless. They're the ones handling the inquiry. They've spent several weeks going back and forth on the bribery issue. They've changed the nature of the charges several times while drafting their impeachment articles and have made the inquiry practically a circus.

That may not mean anything to you, but independents may think otherwise. On top of that, Nadler et al seem to hold the belief that they dont trust voters to make the 'right decision' to remedy the issue in the 2020 elections so theres that as well...

Messaging101... this is imo only going to hurt them. Even more so if trump is eventually acquitted
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Are you for real?

The Democrats have presented the facts. Not the facts as they see them, but the admitted facts that are not being contested. The facts are enough to impeach the president, as he solicited foreign interference in the 2020 election. There are no question marks there. He did it. His spokesgoblin admitted it on tv. Nobody is denying that he did it. Every other concern is secondary.

As for it being the Democrats that are making the impeachment hearings a circus, I can only assume you are deliberately gaslighting.

Trump's is undoubtedly the most deserved impeachment in US history. Nixon wasn't this bad. That Republicans won't vote to convict is because the Republican party is now the party of open corruption.
 
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Trump Tweets

Good marks and reviews on the letter I sent to Pelosi today. She is the worst! No wonder with people like her and Cryin’ Chuck Schumer, D.C. has been such a mess for so long - and that includes the previous administration who (and now we know for sure) SPIED on my campaign.
Donald J. Trump

Democrat “leadership,” despite their denials, are putting tremendous pressure on their members to vote yes on this ridiculous Impeachment. If they vote yes, it will be much easier for Republicans to win in 2020!

Wow! “In a stunning rebuke of the FBI, the FISA court severly chastised the FBI for the FISA abuses brought to light in the recent Inspector General’s Report. There were at least 17 significant errors.” @FoxNews
Statement by the Court was long and tough. Means my case was a SCAM!
 
Trump Tweets

@marcthiessen “Voters say the Democrats are trying to take away their votes. Pelosi was right the first time. Impeachment has backfired thoroughly on the Democrats. How can you Impeach the President for going to the courts?”

So, if Comey & the top people in the FBI were dirty cops and cheated on the FISA Court, wouldn’t all of these phony cases have to be overturned or dismissed? They went after me with the Fake Dossier, paid for by Crooked Hillary & the DNC, which they illegally presented to FISA.......

They want to Impeach me (I’m not worried!), and yet they were all breaking the law in so many ways. How can they do that and yet impeach a very successful (Economy Plus) President of the United States, who has done nothing wrong? These people are Crazy!
 
Segnosaur said:
Actually no they haven't.

The people who have made the inquiry a circus are the Republicans, with their sit-in pizza party (to protest a closed hearing that they could have attended), demands to talk to witnesses that are at best irrelevant and at worse illegal (such as the whistleblower), Trump's regular barrage of tweets and lies, etc.

For the most part, the Democrats have been treating the proceedings with the required decorum... they haven't resorted to the bizarre rhetoric that the republicans have, or engaged in the stunts that the Republicans have. The fact that there was a question over what articles of impeachment to include is not some 'circus', but a rational debate over what charges were most relevant, what could stand the most scrutiny.

Sadly, it is true that some people have come away with the thought that "its both side's fault". Its wrong for them to think that, but sadly there is no easy way to eliminate that incorrect notion.
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Your counter argument about equal blame is a fallacy and a strawman though. The democrats, or rather nadler in particular have made an extravaganza making political theater (remember his big 'parody' read on the ukraine transcripts?), his drama play in the actual impeachment hearings just last week. Having control over the process in the house of representatives of the impeachment inquiry and presenting witnesses that are largely hearsay and havent help their case in persuading public opinion aside from those that already agreed with impeachment to begin with... making a huge deal out of bribery before they even debated its inclusion into the impeachment articles... pushing a 'sky is falling' narrative about how Trump is a dictator and a tyrant...

Can say plenty about their inquiry and handling of such. I have doubts about how much folks idolizing their handling of the inquiry have paid attention to them... or maybe it's just that partisans agree with the inquiry and find their conduct in them acceptable.

uke2se said:
Are you for real?
The Democrats have presented the facts. Not the facts as they see them, but the admitted facts that are not being contested. The facts are enough to impeach the president, as he solicited foreign interference in the 2020 election. There are no question marks there. He did it. His spokesgoblin admitted it on tv. Nobody is denying that he did it. Every other concern is secondary.
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The impeachability aspect hinges on whether or not his intent in making the phone call was purely for his personal gain and whether he bribed the president of Ukraine to force them to investigate the Bidens. They obviously have had trouble making the bribery case if they amended the impeachment articles to the point of in not being the primary offense. By the way, your 'gaslighting' claim is also a strawman. I've said before that trumps call to Ukraine places him in the wrong. Democrats could have gotten some bipartisanship on a censure of him. But the impeachment is political. Pelosi knew this, and for her part she only went this far because of the left wing base in her caucus
 
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uke2se said:
Are you for real?

The Democrats have presented the facts. Not the facts as they see them, but the admitted facts that are not being contested. The facts are enough to impeach the president, as he solicited foreign interference in the 2020 election. There are no question marks there. He did it. His spokesgoblin admitted it on tv. Nobody is denying that he did it. Every other concern is secondary.

As for it being the Democrats that are making the impeachment hearings a circus, I can only assume you are deliberately gaslighting.

Trump's is undoubtedly the most deserved impeachment in US history. Nixon wasn't this bad. That Republicans won't vote to convict is because the Republican party is now the party of open corruption.
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This is such a fascinating post, and is quite typical of a lot of rhetoric from Democratic and Democratically aligned sources.

Is Grizzly Bear for reall? Yes. He is. And his opinions are shared by millions. I don't know how many millions. It's difficult to say, but the thing I find fascinating is that you, like so many others, are incredulous that such an opinion even exists.

I suspect it's actually a majority opinion.

I blame "news islands". If you watch CNN, you might actually think that the country is united behind impeachment, but a group of stubborn Republican senators will thwart the will of the people and the rule of law. It's really not like that.

The actual facts are there on view for anyone who wants to see them. It's the spin and the interpretations that vary. Did he try to twist Zelensky's arm to get him to investigate Joe and Hunter Biden? Absolutely he did. Everyone agrees to that.

Did he "interfere int he 2020 election"? Uhh......you lost me there. Digging dirt on your opponents is not interfering in the election. It's conducting a campaign. The fact that he used American foreign policy to do that is bad, and Grizzly Bear said so. Most people agree that it's bad.

How bad? Bad enough to remove an elected President? There is no "fact" that answers that question. That's a matter of opinion, not fact.

I don't actually know what the average American thinks about all this. Polls in this day and age are notoriously difficult to get correct, because an awful lot of people won't talk to pollsters and a few of the ones who do deliberately lie about it. My hunch, though, is that they don't want the president removed from office, or at the very least they don't want to bother with all the fuss and nonsense when they know that the president is certainly not going to be removed from office. My hunch is that this whole spectacle will hurt Democrats at the polls, and that's for real.
 
Grizzly Bear said:
The impeachability aspect hinges on whether or not his intent in making the phone call was purely for his personal gain and whether he bribed the president of Ukraine to force them to investigate the Bidens.
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No, it doesn't. Not that there's any rational doubt what his intent was, and Trump and his goblins have made that very clear after the fact. The fact is, he asked a foreign government for an "investigation" into his potential political opponent in the next election, and that was exactly what the original purpose of impeachment was for.

Grizzly Bear said:
They obviously have had trouble making the bribery case if they amended the impeachment articles to the point of in not being the primary offense.
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There was never a "bribery case". What Trump did was A: he solicited foreign interference in a US election and B: When caught he covered it up and obstructed congress.

Grizzly Bear said:
By the way, your 'gaslighting' claim is also a strawman.
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No, it's not. It's what you and other Republicans are doing.

Grizzly Bear said:
I've said before that trumps call to Ukraine places him in the wrong. Democrats could have gotten some bipartisanship on a censure of him. But the impeachment is political. Pelosi knew this, and for her part she only went this far because of the left wing base in her caucus
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Impeachment is political by its very nature. It's also the only way to hold Trump accountable for his crimes, since there's no way to indict the president. There was no way to get any bipartisanship because to be a Republican, you need to be completely loyal to Trump, and if you're not, you get thrown out of the party. Thus, no bipartisanship.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
Good post overall, but the above is simply not true.

I’ve seen and heard more than a few Republicans simply NOT agree with that.
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I see your point, although I would contend that what they are actually doing is downplaying rather than denying. They would object to saying that Trump was "twisting his arm", but they all admit that Trump did in fact ask the Ukranians to conduct an investigation of the Bidens,

A few of them would actually insist that Donald Trump was deeply concerned about Ukranian corruption, and was afraid that Joe Biden was involved, and truly wanted a fair and impartial investigation of a matter of great importance to the United States. There's no help for that crowd.
 
I have the feeling that The PDJT is playing "I Am A Rock" by Simon and Garfunkel on a loop today.

His version:
A winter’s day
In a deep and dark December
I am alone
Gazing from my window
To the streets below
On a freshly fallen, silent shroud of snow

I am a rock
I am an island

I’ve built a wall
More or less, steep and mighty
That none may penetrate
I have no need of friendship
Friendship causes pain
It’s laughter and it’s loving I disdain

I am a rock
I am an island

Don’t talk of love
Well, I’ve heard the word before
It’s sleeping in my memory
I won’t disturb the slumber
Of feelings that have died
If I never loved, I never would have cried

I am a rock
I am an island

I have my looks
And my phone and Tweets to protect me
I am shielded in my armor
Hiding in my room
Safe within my womb
I touch no one and no one touches me

I am a rock
I am an island

And a rock feels no pain
And an island never cries
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Meadmaker said:
I see your point, although I would contend that what they are actually doing is downplaying rather than denying.
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I heard a female representative clearly say that Trump did not ask Zelinsky to investigate the Bidens. When presented with the actual quote from the transcript, she said “He did not say that”, or words to that effect. Similar to Trump asserting that he never said that Mexico would pay for the wall.

It’s stunning, but it happens.
 
uke2se said:
Are you for real?

The Democrats have presented the facts. Not the facts as they see them, but the admitted facts that are not being contested. The facts are enough to impeach the president, as he solicited foreign interference in the 2020 election. There are no question marks there. He did it. His spokesgoblin admitted it on tv. Nobody is denying that he did it. Every other concern is secondary.
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You have to understand that republicans object to reality and substitute their own. Reality has a liberal bias against Trump so of course they are rejecting it and any so called "facts" based on reality will also be rejected.

Republicanism 101 there.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
I heard a female representative clearly say that Trump did not ask Zelinsky to investigate the Bidens. When presented with the actual quote from the transcript, she said “He did not say that”, or words to that effect. Similar to Trump asserting that he never said that Mexico would pay for the wall.

It’s stunning, but it happens.
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Wouldn't it be ironic if the "true", locked up transcript said something other than "I'd like you to do us a favor, though"? Something that was much more vague and spinnable?

What amazes me is that all the procedures have been predicated on the edited transcript. I can't believe that the original wasn't subpoenaed.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
I heard a female representative clearly say that Trump did not ask Zelinsky to investigate the Bidens. When presented with the actual quote from the transcript, she said “He did not say that”, or words to that effect. Similar to Trump asserting that he never said that Mexico would pay for the wall.

It’s stunning, but it happens.
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I haven't been kidding for the last couple years when I say we are witnessing a full push toward a complete, reality denying level of an anti-intellectualism.

Once you've destroyed the very concept of a fact where else is there to go?
 
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