UK - December 2019 General Election

[Mr Fied]

Yes, and you should rejoice that now the Tories have been returned with a healthy majority, and can ignore the bleating remainer MPs, they will, at last, be able to deliver it.

The tories called the referendum.

They had a working majority in parliament when the result of the referendum came in.

If all tory MP's voted for a Brexit deal it would have passed.

They have had three years to implement Brexit.

The Tories called an unecessary general election resulting in needing a deal with the DUP to have a majority.

Why do you blame remainer Mp's for the failure to implement Brexit?

 

[ceptimus]

The tories called the referendum.

They had a working majority in parliament when the result of the referendum came in.

If all tory MP's voted for a Brexit deal it would have passed.

They have had three years to implement Brexit.

The Tories called an unecessary general election resulting in needing a deal with the DUP to have a majority.

Why do you blame remainer Mp's for the failure to implement Brexit?

If we only consider MPs then who would you blame for delaying Brexit? Those opposed to Brexit or those in favour? If you're serious about blaming leave supporters then that's real Bermuda triangle stuff - even more deluded than the usual remain nonsense.

One thing you should remember is that May was a remain supporter and her deal was remain lite. Boris's deal is hardly any better, but is more acceptable than May's.

Let's hope that the EU continue to make ridiculous claims during the trade negotiations - they want to tie the UK to EU rules even after we've left, and have unfettered access to all our fishing waters without paying for it. Now that Boris has a good majority he can then tell the EU to get stuffed, and we could leave properly at the end of 2020.

 

[Mr Fied]

If we only consider MPs then who would you blame for delaying Brexit? Those opposed to Brexit or those in favour? If you're serious about blaming leave supporters then that's real Bermuda triangle stuff - even more deluded than the usual remain nonsense.

One thing you should remember is that May was a remain supporter and her deal was remain lite. Boris's deal is hardly any better, but is more acceptable than May's.

Let's hope that the EU continue to make ridiculous claims during the trade negotiations - they want to tie the UK to EU rules even after we've left, and have unfettered access to all our fishing waters without paying for it. Now that Boris has a good majority he can then tell the EU to get stuffed, and we could leave properly at the end of 2020.

How many times did Boris and Jacob vote in favour of leaving the EU?

 

[uke2se]

If we only consider MPs then who would you blame for delaying Brexit? Those opposed to Brexit or those in favour? If you're serious about blaming leave supporters then that's real Bermuda triangle stuff - even more deluded than the usual remain nonsense.

One thing you should remember is that May was a remain supporter and her deal was remain lite. Boris's deal is hardly any better, but is more acceptable than May's.

Let's hope that the EU continue to make ridiculous claims during the trade negotiations - they want to tie the UK to EU rules even after we've left, and have unfettered access to all our fishing waters without paying for it. Now that Boris has a good majority he can then tell the EU to get stuffed, and we could leave properly at the end of 2020.

To be clear, we're talking about a vote to leave the EU in which Boris voted 'no'. Who's the ones wanting to leave the EU and who's those other guys? It must get very confusing in Brexitland.

 

[Arcade22]

Does Corbyn have any responsibility for this humiliating pounding, or is he simply a victim of the establishment?

The political system is volatile because it is failing to generate stable support for the status quo following the financial crash of 2008. As Labour leader I’ve made a point of travelling to all parts of our country and listening to people, and I’ve been continually struck how far trust has broken down in politics.

...

The media attacks on the Labour party for the last four and a half years were more ferocious than ever – and of course that has an impact on the outcome of elections. Anyone who stands up for real change will be met by the full force of media opposition.

The party needs a more robust strategy to meet this billionaire-owned and influenced hostility head-on and, where possible, turn it to our advantage.

We have suffered a heavy defeat, and I take my responsibility for it. Labour will soon have a new leader. But whoever that will be, our movement will continue to work for a more equal and just society, and a sustainable and peaceful world.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...didnt-convert-that-into-a-majority-for-change

He says that he takes his responsibility for the results, and that he has travelled up and down the country listening to people, but nowhere does he acknowledge that he is, to a large degree because of his person, the major reason for why they lost so heavily.

Instead he blames the "billionaire owned media" and the party's Brexit policy (of which he had a great influence on). Also, he's proud of their "radical" manifesto and even-though they lost heavily it's something to be proud of. The fact that no one cared about it, and that it will be of no consequence, is apparently not important.

This is basically the Corbynista's "official" narrative of the election. It's better to be "in the right" rather than actually having a chance of accomplishing something, or anything.

 

[Darat]

Nope.


It will all be the fault of others, mainly the EU for making things difficult.



We no longer live in a political world where logic, decency and accepting responsibility are seen as requirements. Impressions carry all the weight now.

Rhe Tories have been incredibly successful at promoting lies, all the nonsense about the terrible Labour financial crises. And that has become the narrative if you talk to people about it, how austerity was the fault of Labour.

 

[LondonJohn]

Rhe Tories have been incredibly successful at promoting lies, all the nonsense about the terrible Labour financial crises. And that has become the narrative if you talk to people about it, how austerity was the fault of Labour.

Where does all this magic money come from to fund gold-standard public services if the public piggy bank is not only empty but in huge arrears?


(Remember the "joke" piece of paper left behind by Labour's Chief Secretary to the Treasury in 2010 for the incoming coalition administration to read? That should really tell one all one needs to know. Unless one is blind. Or biased.)


ETA: Oh, and let's not forget all those hefty repayments on PFI projects that quickly started denting further large holes in the public finances after 2010. You remember? Those PFI projects that allowed the last (financially-inept) Labour administration to magic up new schools and hospitals and stuff seemingly from thin air, with nary a dent in the government balance sheet - only to pass the exorbitant future mortgage + operating cost burdens on to their successors in government. You remember? Those future ongoing repayment costs which, when discounted back to the present day and added up, turned out to be far, far higher than the NPV of funding these sorts of capital projects in the traditional way? You remember? Those PFI projects which enriched several large construction and facilities services conglomerates - who (and I know for a fact) rubbed their hands with glee at the way Labour bit so naively and greedily at the "buy now, pay later" con being dangled before their eyes?

 

[ceptimus]

To be clear, we're talking about a vote to leave the EU in which Boris voted 'no'. Who's the ones wanting to leave the EU and who's those other guys? It must get very confusing in Brexitland.

Failure to read as usual. You obviously missed the part where I explained that remainer May's deal was more remain than leave.

 

[angrysoba]

The first part of your post suggests that you don't understand how vote splitting works.

No, it doesn't. That was merely your interpretation of what I was saying. I went on to cast doubt on the idea of Brexit making a difference in any particular seat. That was my point.

If the Brexit party didn't contest a specific constituency, then the Labour voters there who were tempted to vote for it are more likely to vote for their second choice (quite possibly Labour) or not vote at all. Your contention that they could split the Labour vote without contesting the election is to a large degree inaccurate.

It's not my contention that they could split the vote without running. But you point out that those who were turned off by the Labour Party, might not have voted at all. The vote splitting theory only works if those who chose not to vote Labour would have voted Labour if the Brexit Party were not running. That's not clear.

Go the BBC 2019 election result website: https://www.bbc.com/news/election/2019/results

Click on the "Change" button near the map and look for seats that were won by Con.

Click on the "Show results" on one of them.

Take a look at the amount of votes that Labour lost and compare them with the amount of votes the Con gained and the BRX gained. Some seats where BRX got more votes than the difference between LAB and CON: Durham North West, Blyth Valley, Burnley, Bury North, Bury South, Bolton North East, Heywood & Middleton, Dewsbury, High Peak,

Labour lost a lot of critical seats that they have held for a significant time because previous voters instead gave their votes to both the Brexit Party and the Conservative party, but also to a lesser degree the Liberal Democratic party and (to an even lesser degree) the greens. Had the Brexit Party not stood any candidates there, it's quite possible they would've been able to keep enough support to retain some of the seats they lost.

Edit: The amount of votes gained by the Conservative Party and The Brexit Party was both quite often around 50% of the total votes that Labour lost.

Yep, and those are some good examples of where the Brexit Party may have split the vote which is all I was asking for.

So thank you, that is much better information and much more relevant information since I specifically asked:

Are there any seats that they affected by running?

You and Darat have suggested some examples, but even then it is not clear, as you hint at in your next post:

Corbyn was more unlikable than Johnson, but Johnson himself is quite unpopular. Voters were not left with a binary choice, which is why many Labour voters who can't stand either Corbyn or Johnson decided to support Farage and the Brexit Party instead. It's important to mention that many older Labour voters couldn't stand to vote for the Conservative Party no matter what, leaving Brexit Party as a better option than grudgingly voting Labour or not voting at all.

Better support the "country lad" Farage than the crazy clown BJ and the hated Conservatives.

Indeed, many of them may not have wanted to vote Conservative. But we don't know how many of them felt the choice was between Labour and Brexit. For many of them it may have been 1st choice: Brexit, 2nd choice: Tory, 3rd choice: not bother going to the polls. If anything, the Brexit Party may have taken votes away from the Tories. I think we will need some more sophisticated polling to discover whether that is true.

Besides this is all in the context of what could have happened if there had been a nationwide or targetted Remain Party. I believe that Remain would have caused even more damage to the other ostensible Remain Parties: Lib Dems, SNP, Green and may have also taken away votes from Labour voters who were fed up with the dithering leadership.

Ultimately, the blame should come down on Corbyn, and his shadow cabinet (McDonnell, Abbott, Thornbury) which was seen as so dysfunctional within the party itself, that its deputy leader resigned just before the election.

 

[Ziggurat]

Ultimately, the blame should come down on Corbyn, and his shadow cabinet (McDonnell, Abbott, Thornbury) which was seen as so dysfunctional within the party itself, that its deputy leader resigned just before the election.

Get woke, go broke. Coming to politics near you.

 

[This is The End]

Get woke, go broke.

Please don't bring that racist and bigoted propaganda crap in here.

The only people who think there is any connection between being "woke" and going "broke" are religious bigots with an agenda.

 

[Information Analyst]

Huh?

What do you think you are telling me that I don't already know?

I know what system the UK has. I asked, in the quote, what seats the Brexit Party affected?

What's your answer to that? Are you going to tell me that MPs sit in the House of Commons?

In places they drew votes away from Labour, but then so did the Lib-Dems and Greens (and SNP, where applicable). I would think that in most places where the Tories gains from Labour, it was more on account of Labour being depleted than themselves being enriched in vote terms.

 

[Darat]

In places they drew votes away from Labour, but then so did the Lib-Dems and Greens (and SNP, where applicable). I would think that in most places where the Tories gains from Labour, it was more on account of Labour being depleted than themselves being enriched in vote terms.

Not got the article link to hand but in some of the "surprise" losses Labour increased their actual votes.

 

[Information Analyst]

One thing you should remember is that May was a remain supporter and her deal was remain lite.

The referendum result wasn't a mandate for a hard Brexit, so you can't whinge about "remain lite" as if it was somehow unacceptable.

 

[Information Analyst]

Please don't bring that racist and bigoted propaganda crap in here.

That's a rather ironic thing to say, considering your offensive avatar.

 

[Information Analyst]

Not got the article link to hand but in some of the "surprise" losses Labour increased their actual votes.

I'm sure there are outliers like that, but the idea that Labour's defeat was only down to Brexit supporters deserting them is - and always has been - misleading.

 

[ceptimus]

The referendum result wasn't a mandate for a hard Brexit, so you can't whinge about "remain lite" as if it was somehow unacceptable.

Of course I can, and so did Boris who as the key figurehead of Vote Leave was eminently entitled to do so. Boris's subsequent election as Leader and re-election as Prime Minister shows that a majority of both the Tory party and the country agree with me.

You choose to inhabit your remain-supporting echo chamber and fail to see how out of step you are with public opinion. Democracy keeps trying to teach you lessons, but there are none so blind as those that refuse to see.

 

[psionl0]

We'll have to disagree on the merits of AV but I think we can both agree it's not PR, and yet that's the answer Tory politicians (and some Labour) give when the Greens or Liberals raise PR is the 'the people rejected it'. No we bloody didn't, we didn't get offered PR, but something that's nothing like it and that no-one was campaigning for (open to being corrected on the latter but I don't recall demands for AV, it's PR people want).

Whether the people of the UK are prepared for the permanently hung parliaments that PR tends to deliver is doubtful. A referendum on PR may have delivered the same result (assuming that either of the major parties would be willing to shoot themselves in the foot in this way).

AV hasn't done Australia any harm. Sure, single member electorates tend to deliver working majorities to one of the major parties even though they don't get a majority of primary votes but at least is avoids scenarios like the following:

In places they drew votes away from Labour, but then so did the Lib-Dems and Greens (and SNP, where applicable). I would think that in most places where the Tories gains from Labour, it was more on account of Labour being depleted than themselves being enriched in vote terms.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The Sunday Telegraph reports that Johnson is planning a dramatic overhaul of Whitehall in a drive to demonstrate that his government "works for the people".

It says his chief aide, Dominic Cummings, will spearhead a programme of radical reform of the civil service, including a review of the processes for hiring and firing officials, to ensure the Prime Minister's agenda is delivered.


So, there goes the politically neutral civil service.

 

[Lothian]

Of course I can, and so did Boris who as the key figurehead of Vote Leave was eminently entitled to do so. Boris's subsequent election as Leader and re-election as Prime Minister shows that a majority of both the Tory party and the country agree with me.

You choose to inhabit your remain-supporting echo chamber and fail to see how out of step you are with public opinion. Democracy keeps trying to teach you lessons, but there are none so blind as those that refuse to see.

What percentage of the voting electorate voted for hard Brexit supporting parties?