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Is This Even Legal?

Orb

Critical Thinker
O
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
324
Hi everyone, this is my first post to this forum, so please be gentile.

My place of employment is constantly allowing meditation experts, chiropractors, fad diet pushers etc... into the building to set up little "workshops" and they charge the employees to attend! Last month they had a "wellness fair" and while it consisted of mostly credible vendors there was of course a whole host of "alternative medicines". Now today I come to work to find this email in my bin:

You are invited to join a Lunchtime Meditation and Stress Reduction Seminar

- Learn to relax and deal in a better way with stressful situations of everyday life
- Learn how your thinking influences the quality of your life
- Learn how to achieve positive changes in your body through the power of your mind

Scientific studies have proven that the regular practice of meditation and guided imagery has many positive benefits. These include control of blood pressure with less medication, reduction in chronic pain, improvements in sleep, reduction of premenstrual symptoms, reduction of nausea and vomiting in patients undergoing chemotherapy, reduction in anxiety, and so on.

You are invited to join the seminar, conducted by Dorit Brauer, and experience these benefits yourself!

When: Monday, December 12, 2005
12 noon – 1 p.m.

Where: Training Room A

Cost: $15 (payable at time of class)


I'm sure you can see why I am upset. I love the "scientific studies" line. Is there any way to stop this quackery? Has anyone else had to deal with this at work? Is it even legal? This is a publicly traded company.

I'm so mad I'm seeing red!

I really respect your advice, HELP!! :(
 
I'm not sure what would be illegal about the managers of your company arranging for such seminars. You probably wouldn't complain about them if they were relevant to your work.

There are many studies of meditation that purport to show benefits. Some are probably even reasonable. Relaxation is a good thing. But you can certainly attend the seminar and ask about the studies. Of course, you'll have to pay $15 to do so.

Oh, and welcome!

~~ Paul
 
Orb said:
These include control of blood pressure with less medication, reduction in chronic pain, improvements in sleep, reduction of premenstrual symptoms, reduction of nausea and vomiting in patients undergoing chemotherapy, reduction in anxiety, and so on.

You are invited to join the seminar, conducted by Dorit Brauer, and experience these benefits yourself!
Click to expand...

I am not so sure you will actually experience any of these benefits by joining her seminar. ;)

I am sure you have to do a bit more relaxing than that. And of course you need to suffer from symptoms in the first place.

There is nothing paranormal about meditation but it attracts woos in big numbers.
 
But aren't they claiming that by using meditation you can use the mind-body connection to heal yourself? I thought this was bunk, like saying you won't burn yourself by walking on coals if you "believe" you won't. I agree meditation can be relaxing, and that's great and all, but so is taking your dog for a walk or knitting (both free). I just think its wrong to offer this crap at work as a cure-all and I don't think it should be allowed.
 
The thing is, Orb, they aren't forcing you to go. It's voluntary.

Welcome to the forum, by the way.
 
There are many, many things that are legal that aren't moral. Or logical. A seminar on meditation may be useful to someone who's never meditated (or at least show them that they are already meditating and they didn't realize it like when falling asleep while petting a purring cat) but I think a seminar on how to increase your IQ by 20 points by inserting crystals in your ears would be suspect.

If your company has crystal ear seminars (or similar type stuff) and they are denying you promotions (or at least voicing dissatisfaction) because you don't go or try to show your co-workers why it's woo, then I would look into legalities, or at least find another job.
 
Hello, Orb.
At the end of the day it's your call.
If you don't like this sort of stuff you can complain, formally or informally to your managers. I suspect you will get a negative response, as these are the people who have permitted it in the first place.

If you can make a case that there is some cost to the company, you stand more chance of success. Or if the re is a violation of the health and safety codes of the building. You might call the power company and ask if they realise these folk are channeling energy without appropriate personal protective equipment, but well...
If you are to stand any chance of making a case, you must get to know what they actually do. Which means parting with your cash to the enemy.
I know how this feels, believe me. I'm a true Scotsman. Sometimes you must invest in order to acquire though. If nothing else, once you've bought your ticket, they can't stop you having your say. If you reckon they're all being very silly, tell them so. But be polite . You probably wouldn't walk into a church, or a library and sing the "Banana Boat Song " out loud, so don't do it here either.

Best I can suggest is cough up once or twice and go along determined to have a laugh. But take detailed notes and pictures if they'll permit it. Nothing deters semi-sane folk from talking complete hooey like a microphone.

Don't know where you are in the world by the way, but there's no harm in checking building / zoning regs and sending an anonymous tip off of any violation to local authority.
 
Orb, yes, it's legal. The fact that they're a "publicly traded" company has nothing to do with it. "Publicly traded" doesn't mean "They belong to the public, and so the public has a say in what they do". That's "the government" that you're talking about. "Publicly traded" just means that their stock is bought and sold on the stock market, as opposed to it all being in private hands and never offered for sale publicly.

The public doesn't have a say in how Wal-Mart decides to arrange its store, and neither does the public have a say in whether your employer decides to arrange for stress management seminars.

And lots and LOTS of companies do offer stress management seminars. It's quit common, although most of them tend towards the relatively straightforward "meditation" end of the spectrum.

And so, unless the seminars that are being offered are quite overtly woo, like crystal therapy or ESP or UFOs, I wouldn't quibble too loudly to Management about them, because obviously they have no problem with it, and neither do their peers.
 
Orb, is it physically possible for you to e mail your whole company (or perhaps your whole devision)?

Why not reply to one of the e mails with:

"Want to learn more about such things? Please visit <randi.org>"
 
It's not a big deal if they're not forcing you to attend, IMO.

Besides, the claims that have been made aren't, in my humble opinion, really harmful. They claim meditation improves/relieves highly suggestive symptoms, which IIRC is true or at least partially so.
I admit I'm much too lazy at the moment to try to find the pertinent studies (I'm on my husband's laptop today, and it doesn't have any of my science-y bookmarks). My apologies.

And... welcome to the forum! :D
 
strathmeyer said:
Orb, is it physically possible for you to e mail your whole company (or perhaps your whole devision)?

Why not reply to one of the e mails with:

"Want to learn more about such things? Please visit <randi.org>"
Click to expand...
Bad idea, IMO. The last thing Orb needs to do is p*ss off a boss who does believe in sCAMs. I cringe just thinking about it.
 
Corporate junk emails are another matter. These are not being read during lunch, but on normal work time. Suppose it takes everyone 30 seconds to read the 'meditation' message and either respond to it or discard.

Say they have 1000 employees.
30 seconds x 1000 = 30,000 seconds of email reading.
divide by 60 to get minutes, or 500 minutes
divide 500 minutes by 60 to get hours, for 8.3 hours

So the company potentially spent 8.3 hours promoting the program before anyone ever attended. It makes sense that they focus on the programs that have the greatest potential for [whatever they want in return]. Companies need to get more of a grip on their use of email and how it can distract from their primary goals.
 
Welcome Orb :)

Yeah, it does look like a woo circular - "scientific studies have proven..."

But equally, the benefits of meditation (read: relaxation/mindfulness) are known to benefit some things, including chronic pain, and obviously if you're stressed, a bit of regular relaxation is good.

Orb said:
Hi everyone, this is my first post to this forum, so please be gentile.
Click to expand...

:eek: I'm surprised no refugees from the Politics forum have come over to accuse you of antisemitism... ;)
 
Orb said:


You are invited to join a Lunchtime Meditation and
Stress Reduction Seminar

- Learn to relax and deal in a better way with stressful situations
of everyday life
- Learn how your thinking influences the quality of your life
- Learn how to achieve positive changes in your body through the
power of your mind

Scientific studies have proven that the regular practice of meditation
and guided imagery has many positive benefits. These include control
of blood pressure with less medication, reduction in chronic pain,
improvements in sleep, reduction of premenstrual symptoms, reduction
of nausea and vomiting in patients undergoing chemotherapy, reduction
in anxiety, and so on.

You are invited to join the seminar, conducted by Dorit Brauer, and
experience these benefits yourself!

When: Monday, December 12, 2005
12 noon – 1 p.m.

Where: Training Room A

Cost: $15 (payable at time of class)
Click to expand...

I'm not much of a buddhist, but I did practice it for about a year. I
wasn't a big fan of meditation, and rarely tried it.

But I had a friend of mine who attended Isshnryu karate, and his
instructor was big on meditation. From the way he described it, I
think many forms of meditation put you in a hypnotic state. For
instance, his instructor had a demonstration where he would front-kick
one of his students in their back while they meditated. I suspect that
in their hypnotic state, they were able to "turn off" their pain, at
the suggestion of their instructor, or perhaps even at their own
suggestion, if they were so skilled. I'm sure they felt the pain, but
they were probably able to put it behind them.

So from what I heard about meditation from my friend, I'd have to
agree with the ad. Even though the ad is giving the facts a rather
silly, paranormal frame:


"- Learn to relax and deal in a better way with stressful situations
of everyday life"

Meditation is a form of relaxing. You can calm yourself down by taking the time to sit and meditate, or reminding yourself of peaceful times meditation has brought
forth. I see nothing paranormal with this.

"-Learn how your thinking influences the quality of your life"

Thinking does indeed influence the quality of your life. Being a
depressed person is detrimental to your health. Being a smart person
might net you a good job. Being illogical might make you religious. I
can thing of no better factor than "thinking" to influence the normal
man or woman.


"-Learn how to achieve positive changes in your body through the power
of your mind"

This ad is right on again. A person with strong will-power will be
able to work out, and eat healthier. A person less stressed, and in
more emotional control of themselves, is capable of more intelligent
decisions.

"...These include control of blood pressure with less medication..."

A person with less stress, perhaps with the help of taking time to
meditate, and set time for themselves each day to gather their
thoughts, can help their blood pressure. Are doctors these days not
suggesting a less stressful lifestyle for people with high blood
pressure? Unless someone here can prove that intelligent meditation
does nothing to unstress humans, it's moot to argue against this
statement.


"...reduction in chronic pain, improvements in sleep, reduction of
premenstrual symptoms, reduction of nausea and vomiting in patients
undergoing chemotherapy, reduction in anxiety, and so on..."

Of course you can reduce all of these things by being less stressed!
Why, I'm absolutely positive that if you clone two people, teach one
to be an optimist, and the other a pessimist, the optimist would
undoubtedly be better off in each of these situations. How much better
off would they be? Likely, only marginal, but everyone knows the
stories about people who don't give up, and fight through their
diseases, and recover well, whereas those who give up usually fall
prey to their illnesses and tribulations faster. If meditation can
give some people the confidence and peece of mind to do a little
better than they would otherwise be, then the ad is telling the truth.


But, one of the things not mentioned is that although this ad is
telling the truth about what meditation is capable of at its very
best, it doesn't state whether or not the person teaching the class is
anywhere near the expertise to help people who pay a batha-foddering 15 bucks
to learn it. Meditating isn't an overnight thing. It takes practice,
lots of practice. The benefits listed are possible in human beings,
but it's not explained why they work (probably because most people are
too dumb to understand things like psychophysiology, and in my experience, would doubt the science before they doubt "magic". People are dumb), or the effort it would take to elevate one's ability to meditate in such a manner.

I doubt many people in our culture are willing or disciplined enough to meditate to the degree necessary to perhaps affect their health, and I doubt even more that they could understand why it works. If anything, the ad is guilty of making things sound easy. I guess if it wanted to be 100% honest, it would include a statement as such:

WARNING: meditation is no walk in the park, and will take a hell of a lot of your time and patience, and chances are the instructor isn't very good at showing you how it works. Also, we're not entirely sure if the benefits it gives you is better than spending your time going on a healthy walk or run, or perhaps reading some literature, you ignorant consumerist moron you.

:)
 
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If you find it irratating you might point out to your management that a way of reducing your stress is for them to have the seminar moderators executed. Tell them to have them sent to texas by way of Gitmo. Tell them to ask their religion. If they are jews, have them get in touch with Chaos or AUP, if moslem Mycroft or me. We will help them with their stress. Tell them you want to do a scientific study. Put a dog collar on them and parade them around the office naked. Take blood pressure during and after. If it goes down, attach electrodes to their privates, if not, attach electrodes to their privates. Ship them to Denmark.

Free, immediate results. That is the way we handle problems on the Politics forum.
 
Ed said:
If you find it irratating you might point out to your management that a way of reducing your stress is for them to have the seminar moderators executed. Tell them to have them sent to texas by way of Gitmo. Tell them to ask their religion. If they are jews, have them get in touch with Chaos or AUP, if moslem Mycroft or me. We will help them with their stress. Tell them you want to do a scientific study. Put a dog collar on them and parade them around the office naked. Take blood pressure during and after. If it goes down, attach electrodes to their privates, if not, attach electrodes to their privates. Ship them to Denmark.

Free, immediate results. That is the way we handle problems on the Politics forum.
Click to expand...

Sir, I find your ideas interesting and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
 
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