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UK - December 2019 General Election

As an American, am I wrong to think that Corbyn's threats to nationalize large parts of the country scared the beejesus out of people?
 
So, just to be clear - we're saying goodbye to Europe, closely followed by saying goodbye to the NHS, closely followed by saying goodbye to the BBC, closely followed by saying goodbye to Scotland.

I wonder if there's time to become a citizen of a different country?
 
Hercules56 said:
As an American, am I wrong to think that Corbyn's threats to nationalize large parts of the country scared the beejesus out of people?
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There's a lot of public support for at least some of the nationalisations. The trains are the more prominent example, because people have seen over the years since it was nationalised that it's led to less reliable service that costs a huge amount more.

Not everybody is an enthusiastic about all of them as they are about the trains, but nationalisation is generally held to be a good idea for essential services in this country, because people understand that privatisation is primarily a way of moving money from the public's pockets to very rich people's pockets.
 
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https://twitter.com/SebDance/status/1205251701130878978?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

I remember very well the canvass I did in a seat Labour hoped (still hopes!) to get. Huge anger at Brexit - they loathed Johnson. But they feared one thing more: Jeremy Corbyn.

Door after door after door.
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angrysoba said:
Holy ****** Tories look like they are going to win a landslide!

And look at the SNP. 55 seats! That’s almost all of them, right? Scotland will be independent before long.
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Ah but here's the thing (and don't flay me alive, SNP-ers!): the SNP needs a mandate from the national Westminster parliament to allow a Scottish independence referendum to happen. If the Conservative majority is anything like the exit poll predicts, it's a racing certainty that the Westminster parliament would refuse any such authorisation.

So that would/will place us in a fascinating position. Would/will the SNP decide to defy Westminster and organise an independence referendum nonetheless? History and precedent suggest that this might end rather badly - the recent fiasco in Catalonia followed exactly this dynamic (the Spanish Parliament refused to authorise an independence referendum, but the Catalan Government held one nevertheless, and won a majority for independence); there's still a European arrest warrant out for the erstwhile President of Catalonia (the equivalent of Nicola Sturgeon) while the independence result is not recognised in international law or by any sovereign nation.

Sure will be an..... interesting.... 12/18 months ahead
 
Hercules56 said:
As an American, am I wrong to think that Corbyn's threats to nationalize large parts of the country scared the beejesus out of people?
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Support for (re)nationalizing a lot of key services including gas, electricity, water, rail & Post has been strong, high fifties to mid seventy percent depending on which precise service you're talking about. The papers like to make out everyone is against it but the polls say otherwise. Even Margaret Thatcher was passionately against selling the Post Office.
 
P.J. Denyer said:
Support for (re)nationalizing a lot of key services including gas, electricity, water, rail & Post has been strong, high fifties to mid seventy percent depending on which precise service you're talking about. The papers like to make out everyone is against it but the polls say otherwise. Even Margaret Thatcher was passionately against selling the Post Office.
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Indeed, critical national infrastructure should not be left to the market....
 
LondonJohn said:
Ah but here's the thing (and don't flay me alive, SNP-ers!): the SNP needs a mandate from the national Westminster parliament to allow a Scottish independence referendum to happen. If the Conservative majority is anything like the exit poll predicts, it's a racing certainty that the Westminster parliament would refuse any such authorisation.

So that would/will place us in a fascinating position. Would/will the SNP decide to defy Westminster and organise an independence referendum nonetheless? History and precedent suggest that this might end rather badly - the recent fiasco in Catalonia followed exactly this dynamic (the Spanish Parliament refused to authorise an independence referendum, but the Catalan Government held one nevertheless, and won a majority for independence); there's still a European arrest warrant out for the erstwhile President of Catalonia (the equivalent of Nicola Sturgeon) while the independence result is not recognised in international law or by any sovereign nation.

Sure will be an..... interesting.... 12/18 months ahead
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Oh I know! Cameron only granted referendums that he thought his side would comfortably win.
But the genie’s not going back in the bottle any time soon. If support for independence becomes overwhelming then things will get ugly.
 
P.J. Denyer said:
Support for (re)nationalizing a lot of key services including gas, electricity, water, rail & Post has been strong, high fifties to mid seventy percent depending on which precise service you're talking about. The papers like to make out everyone is against it but the polls say otherwise. Even Margaret Thatcher was passionately against selling the Post Office.
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Merely speculating, but perhaps it's not so much that most people are against it as it is that those who are for it are mildly for it, whilst those who are against it are extremely against it. Having the public on your side on an issue doesn't mean a lot if those on your side don't regard it as an election priority and those not on your side do.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
There's a lot of public support for at least some of the nationalisations. The trains are the more prominent example, because people have seen over the years since it was nationalised that it's led to less reliable service that costs a huge amount more.

Not everybody is an enthusiastic about all of them as they are about the trains, but nationalisation is generally held to be a good idea for essential services in this country, because people understand that privatisation is primarily a way of moving money from the public's pockets to very rich people's pockets.
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Yeah, everyone remembers how efficient, dynamic and competitive BT (and its precurser companies) was when it was the nationalised phone network operator.....

Some privatisations make extremely good sense for the public good. It's simply reductive and wrong to think that their primary purpose is to enrich a small elite at the expense of the public. But what's important is a) the scale and scope of any privatisations, and in which sectors; and b) the scope and power of the regulatory system that's put in place.

Where Corbyn and McDonnell truly jumped the shark in respect of nationalisation IMO was this "free high-speed broadband for all" promise. That was a stupid, unworkable, unfeasibly-expensive and hugely anti-competitive promise which could/would never have been able to be realised. I certainly agree that sectors like transportation infrastructure/OpCo's and utilities need a widescale rethink about the balance between private and public ownership and the nature of the regulatory environment, but Corbyn's fantasy broadband giveaway was straight from the loony left playbook.
 
angrysoba said:
Oh I know! Cameron only granted referendums that he thought his side would comfortably win.
But the genie’s not going back in the bottle any time soon. If support for independence becomes overwhelming then things will get ugly.
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I agree. Things got (and still are) extremely ugly in Catalonia vs Spain, for exactly the same reason. And, as I said, things didn't end up well for the separatists, irrespective of the majority in favour of seperation.
 
LondonJohn said:
He prob will I think, but of course for a different party (LibDem). That ship has long since sailed for Labour. But what happens now will be of great interest. If the exit polls are anything near accurate, there's absolutely no way that Corbyn, McDonnell and the other hard-left leadership can stay on. I also think it signals the end (for a generation or so) of hard-left influence at the top of Labour.

I have a few thoughts on who might emerge victorious in the inevitable leadership contest (including a couple of dark horses), but so much of it - crazily, under Lab's current party-leader election system - depends on who's secretly promised what to whom, especially in respect of the cluster of huge trades unions who can swing the vote (as they did with Ed Miliband in 2010.....)
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That would be great. The U.K. needs an electable Labour Party... but I’m not sure Corbyn or his fan club will listen to reason. Moderate Labour might need to start a new club.
 
Giz said:
That would be great. The U.K. needs an electable Labour Party... but I’m not sure Corbyn or his fan club will listen to reason. Moderate Labour might need to start a new club.
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Well stranger things have happened. Just ask the "Gang of Four"....

My own personal view is that the very term and brand of "Labour" carries a lot of baggage which is very unhelpful when it comes to attracting those swing voters. IMO the Labour party could/should rename itself something like "The Democratic Labour Party", and (bizarre as something as seemingly-small as a name change might be) this might present the party in a more progressive light that is in tune with modern society.

Or there might - as you suggest - be a schism and a breakaway formation of a whole new party. Unfortunately though, this would very likely be, in the short term at least, electoral suicide for both the rump Labour party and any such new breakaway party.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
So, just to be clear - we're saying goodbye to Europe, closely followed by saying goodbye to the NHS, closely followed by saying goodbye to the BBC, closely followed by saying goodbye to Scotland.

I wonder if there's time to become a citizen of a different country?
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Well, most countries do not have those three things (membership in EU, plus a system like the NHS, plus a broadcaster as big as the BBC), so your options are limited.
 
LondonJohn said:
Where Corbyn and McDonnell truly jumped the shark in respect of nationalisation IMO was this "free high-speed broadband for all" promise. That was a stupid, unworkable, unfeasibly-expensive and hugely anti-competitive promise which could/would never have been able to be realised.
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Yeah, at least to me that really came across as a horribly awkward "We'll give free sweeties to everyone!" kind of deal.

I mean, if they'd even said the gov would fund some kind of basic broadband package for minimum wage workers or people on benefits or something, that would be reasonable. But free broadband, for everyone? Just no.
 
Seismosaurus said:
Merely speculating, but perhaps it's not so much that most people are against it as it is that those who are for it are mildly for it, whilst those who are against it are extremely against it. Having the public on your side on an issue doesn't mean a lot if those on your side don't regard it as an election priority and those not on your side do.
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Honestly, I don't think manifestos came into it. Four years of lies about Brexit and the public perception of Corbyn have brought us here.
 
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