UK - December 2019 General Election

[Vixen]

I think you're quite wrong.

A Corbyn Brexit would be around 85% as damaging as a no-deal Brexit if economic modellers and forecasters are to be believed. Of course a Corbyn Brexit is impossible (the UK cannot be in a customs union and have its own trade deals) so it will be almost identical to a Conservative Brexit.

You may feel that the workers' rights make a big difference but given that any government could immediately reverse that position then IMO the key thing is that both parties want to leave the EU - something which will significantly and permanently damage UK society.

The Labour Party claims to want to protect workers but official policy will be to take a step which will do the most damage to workers and the least well off in British history - Brexit.

I'll still hold my nose and vote Labour but only to try to prevent a Conservative victory.

Corbyn will put an option to remain. This treats the electorate with respect. He is not trying to put one over on the electorate as May did and Johnson is doing. Johnson's deal is the same as May's.

I have just donated £3 to Labour's fighting fund as I despise Boris Johnson's behaviour.

 

[ceptimus]

There was a narrow majority in favour of leaving the EU.

Yes. And therefore, using the rules that applied to that referendum, Leave won. The idea of having another referendum where the choice will be between remaining or almost remaining is absurd.

 

[Darat]

Yep having a referendum is absurd...

 

[ceptimus]

Yep having a referendum is absurd...

If the result of the election is that Corbyn becomes the new PM. then we'll get another referendum, but the two choices available will exclude the first choice option of about 50% of the population.

If Corbyn can't be persuaded to put a genuine leave option on the ballot paper - and I don't expect he can, then it's going to lead to a lot of non-participation, and a lot of spoiled ballots. I expect that the (remain) result will be implemented though, and the remoaners will have won the day.

 

[Dave_46]

Did ceptimus ever address the illegal expenditure on the referendum that was mentioned to him/her?

 

[jimbob]

Your majority is already in the grave. Soon the rest of you will be too.

You really hate a lot of your fellow citizens don’t you?

In the case of the 2016 referendum - demographics says that is the case, given the age range of the voting splits and the birth and death rates.

In my constituency, 3% of the electorate (including two of my kids) were too young to vote in 2016, but now can (and intend to)

 

[Lothian]

It's not what I wanted - it's what WE voted for. That's democracy for you, although you and many remoaner MPs still don't seem to have grasped the concept. Judges got just one vote each in the referendum - the same as the rest of us, so when their rulings go against the majority vote, they are indeed enemies of the people - and enemies of democracy too. Privilege gives people like Gina Miller and Alastair Campbell much more influence than ordinary voters, but they still only get one vote each, thankfully.

You seem confused and seem to think that what we in the UK democratic system call advisory votes are not advisory but mandatory. You may well hate the way we do democracy in the UK and hate the fact that Boris voted 9 times against deals that would have had us out of the EU and you may be upset that 17.4 million people think you are wrong in demanding that we, the UK parliament should take back control and apply UK law but...tough. If you hate the UK, our laws and our democratic system argue against that rather than blaming the UK from applying its own laws.

 

[ceptimus]

You seem confused and seem to think that what we in the UK democratic system call advisory votes are not advisory but mandatory. You may well hate the way we do democracy in the UK and hate the fact that Boris voted 9 times against deals that would have had us out of the EU and you may be upset that 17.4 million people think you are wrong in demanding that we, the UK parliament should take back control and apply UK law but...tough. If you hate the UK, our laws and our democratic system argue against that rather than blaming the UK from applying its own laws.

We've gone over this so many times already. When parliament votes overwhelming to make a decision by means of referendum, and the government of the day sends a leaflet to every household saying, "This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide." then it's moronic to assert that the referendum result is merely advisory.

 

[Vixen]

We've gone over this so many times already. When parliament votes overwhelming to make a decision by means of referendum, and the government of the day sends a leaflet to every household saying, "This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide." then it's moronic to assert that the referendum result is merely advisory.

If Mummy and Daddy say, 'Ceptimus, you can choose whatever sweets you like', and you select a huge bag of gobstoppers and licorice allsorts. Is it wrong for Mummy to say, 'no, darling, you can't eat them all at once you'll be sick'.

Ceptimus throws himself to the ground his little face turning gargantuan and puce as he kicks his little legs having the most almighty tantrum.

'But-but - <fx gasp for air> you said I could have whatever sweets I like... Baaaahhhhhaahhhaaa <fx hic> bwahhhhhh'

 

[Lothian]

We've gone over this so many times already. When parliament votes overwhelming to make a decision by means of referendum, and the government of the day sends a leaflet to every household saying, "This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide." then it's moronic to assert that the referendum result is merely advisory.

We have gone over this far more often than should be necessary.

The referendum was advisory, it has no higher legal status. That is a fact.

The only two groups of people disputing that fact are imbeciles who lack the intellectual ability to understand the most basic law. The other group are deliberate liars.

 

[Andy_Ross]

According to the mail the Simon Wiesenthal Centre has said that the Labour Party is the biggest global threat to Jews.


Not much mention of the Tory candidates that have been dropped due to their anti-semitic remarks though.

 

[ceptimus]

If Mummy and Daddy say, 'Ceptimus, you can choose whatever sweets you like', and you select a huge bag of gobstoppers and licorice allsorts. Is it wrong for Mummy to say, 'no, darling, you can't eat them all at once you'll be sick'.

Ceptimus throws himself to the ground his little face turning gargantuan and puce as he kicks his little legs having the most almighty tantrum.

'But-but - <fx gasp for air> you said I could have whatever sweets I like... Baaaahhhhhaahhhaaa <fx hic> bwahhhhhh'

This is an exceptionally stupid analogy. Also deliberately insulting, but that's normal for remoaners. There were only two available choices in the referendum.

Here's a more accurate version of your analogy.

Vixen: Would you prefer an apple or an orange? I promise that whatever you choose you will get.
Child: An orange please.
Vixen: An orange is an impossibility. Oranges are poisonous. Only a misinformed imbecile would choose an orange. Now choose again between an apple or half an apple.

 

[Garrison]

According to the mail the Simon Wiesenthal Centre has said that the Labour Party is the biggest global threat to Jews.


Not much mention of the Tory candidates that have been dropped due to their anti-semitic remarks though.

I think they are expecting a Johnson government to follow the Trump line with regard to Israel and the Palestinians, so a couple of anti-Semitic Tory candidates can be readily overlooked.

 

[Garrison]

Oh and shockingly it turns out Johnson is still lying about customs checks in Northern Ireland:

Mr Johnson has insisted there won't be any checks for goods travelling between Northern Ireland and Great Britain under his Brexit deal.
He told Sky News "the only checks that there would be, would be if something was coming from GB via Northern Ireland and was going on to the Republic, then there might be checks at the border into Northern Ireland".
But our Reality Check team have looked into it and found some goods entering Northern Ireland from Great Britain will have to be checked even if they are staying in Northern Ireland.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-2019-50701104

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

This is an exceptionally stupid analogy. Also deliberately insulting, but that's normal for remoaners. There were only two available choices in the referendum.

Here's a more accurate version of your analogy.

Vixen: Would you prefer an apple or an orange? I promise that whatever you choose you will get.
Child: An orange please.
Vixen: An orange is an impossibility. Oranges are poisonous. Only a misinformed imbecile would choose an orange. Now choose again between an apple or half an apple.

A better analogy would be, would you like an apple or a magical treat that will allow you to fly and tastes good forever and is totally healthy?
And then blame everyone else for not providing said magical candy.

After all, the reason brexit failed is because what was promised in the referendum turned out to be a totally impossible fantasy.

 

[Darat]

Just under a week to go, lets start our predictions for the Tory majority, i'm going with 20 to 25.

 

[ceptimus]

A better analogy would be, would you like an apple or a magical treat that will allow you to fly and tastes good forever and is totally healthy?
And then blame everyone else for not providing said magical candy.

After all, the reason brexit failed is because what was promised in the referendum turned out to be a totally impossible fantasy.

The politicians chose the question and the (ONLY TWO) possible answers.

When the bill about holding the referendum came before the House of Commons, only the Scottish Nationalist Party opposed it - the Lib Dems and other parties all gave their support. The second reading gave a majority for holding the referendum of 544 to 53. The third reading, still only 53 voted against though some MPs abstained. The result was 316 votes to 53.

So the MPs knew exactly what choice they were offering the electorate and voted overwhelmingly in favour of it. When some MPs subsequently argued that one of the two offered choices was impossible, they exposed themselves as lying hypocrites.

 

[ceptimus]

Just under a week to go, lets start our predictions for the Tory majority, i'm going with 20 to 25.

I posted right at the beginning of this thread that by polling day, the polls will be suggesting "too close to call". I still expect that to be the case. I think the Tories will get more seats than any other single party, but I think their majority (if any) will be less than 20.

 

[ceptimus]

Which of the defector MPs are likely to be re-elected? These are MPs who are either standing for a different party this time around, or are standing as independents.

Here's a list of the ones I can think of. I think all of these are standing somewhere, but I've not checked. There are probably others that I've forgotten:

David Gauke, Dominic Grieve, Sarah Wollaston, Sam Gyimah, Anna Soubry, Philip Lee, Chuka Umunna, Ann Milton, Luciana Berger, Angela Smith, Antoinette Sandbach, Frank Field, Mike Gapes, Chris Leslie, Gavin Shuker, Chris WIlliamson

I'd like all of these people to lose their well-paid jobs for turning their backs on the people that voted for them. If they'd called a by election when they abandoned their parties that would be different - but none of them did that *. Most people in the UK vote for a party at general elections - not an individual.

I expect one or two of the slimier ones to slip through. Chuka Umunna is the slimiest one, in my opinion, and perhaps the one most likely to still have his nose in the trough after the election.

* In fairness to one or two of them, they didn't have time to call by-elections between being thrown out of their party and the general election being called - but I still want them to lose their jobs: the reason they were thrown out of their party was because they opposed it and the manifesto they stood on at the previous election.

 

[GlennB]

Just under a week to go, lets start our predictions for the Tory majority, i'm going with 20 to 25.

40-45