Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

[Gamolon]

The quran contains many terrible verses of what God will do to people, burning them in eternal fire and pouring boiling liquids on them that will burn their insides as well as their skins. I am trying to do Muslims a favour and liberate them from the fear of such a God by literary criticism of the quran.

You mean the version of your God and the Angels that choose incarnations which KNOWINGLY contain terrible experiences such as being raped multiple times, being burned alive, tortured, etc. is better?

That wouldn't strike fear into anyone whom you preach your ideas to? How would ANY spirit that remembers such a horrible past life want to incarnate ever again? Especially when the Angels that choose the incarnations could possibly pick an even more horrifying experience than the last incarnation all based on "karmic check and balances" that said spirit has no idea of where it currently stands and only the Angels know of.

 

[Gamolon]

Religions and theology's that teach us God is some external deity are outdated misunderstandings.

How is it that you say above that God is NOT an external deity but then contradict it with your quotes below?

The spirit world says that God remains above all this and we ultimately evolve spiritually toward reuniting with him in a state of grace, at which time our sufferings will seem a small price to pay.

The theory is that we start out as immortal spirits that are breathed out of God in huge batches, or spiritual families.

The inhabitants of the spirit world ultimately answer to God, and they say it is obvious there is one because energy streams down from above, and higher beings visit the lower planes to teach.

The spiritual philosophy behind it is that God does not interfere in human affairs. He is simply the source of everything and he waits for us to return to him by our own efforts. We are here to act as we see fit and reap the consequences. Its called cause and effect, and it works through karma and reincarnation. The spirit world teaches that we will live countless lives in a cycle that will eventually lead us to spiritual perfection and unity with God.

I believe there is only one God, and I don't believe in Goblins.

 

[Gamolon]

You haven't yet grasped that the contrived religion you've made up is inherently contradictory.

It's honestly amazing the number of contradictions he has created.

 

[Loss Leader]

It's honestly amazing the number of contradictions he has created.

Plenty of religions have contradictions. My own religion believes that God takes one week out of every year to decide exactly who will suffer and/or die over the next year. "May you be inscribed in the book of life," is a common greeting between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur (g'mar chatima tova). And yet, my religion also believes that good works, charity towards others, community, and religious observance daily are important.

Either the future is written and we can do whatever we want, or it isn't and we need to adhere to a set of moral rules (however such morality may be derived).

The difference is, I'm not on a message board for plumbers proselytizing about the revealed word of God.

If Scorpion has a spiritual belief that brings him comfort, mazel tov. I don't see the point in him trying his beliefs in the crucible of other people's acceptance.

 

[JayUtah]

Plenty of religions have contradictions.

Some even embrace them as wondrous paradoxes or "mysteries." There can be an air of superiority around doctrines that don't make sense to us mere mortals.

Either the future is written and we can do whatever we want, or it isn't and we need to adhere to a set of moral rules (however such morality may be derived).

The various schools of Judaism are no better postured than any other way of thinking to resolve the inherent contradiction between predestination and free will. It's an inescapable condition of belief in an omnipotent, omniscient god. Understanding that no one, clearly rational, answer will somehow settle out of this conundrum is important to anyone who wants to argue that such a religion is intellectually valid.

The difference is, I'm not on a message board for plumbers proselytizing about the revealed word of God.

There are important nuances to that difference. You apparently own the contradiction. You aren't trying to pretend it's not there, or fool people by flipping between extremes.

More specifically, Scorpion is attacking the inconsistencies and paradoxes in other religions and arguing that this makes them invalid. To fail to apply the same standards to one's own beliefs marks them as double standards. Embrace your religion and its paradoxes, and allow others to enjoy their respective paradoxes. Have faith that trumps logic and fact, but admit that others have that privilege too. I have the luxury of rejecting all irrational religions without prejudice. Yes, mazel tov to the believers, but don't expect me to applaud.

I don't see the point in him trying his beliefs in the crucible of other people's acceptance.

For some, the delight in practicing religion entails being persecuted for the faith.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

So scorpion can you clarify something for me please?

You say that some people need to have suffering inflicted upon them due to some karmic balance sheet style affair correct?

 

[JayUtah]

Especially when the Angels that choose the incarnations could possibly pick an even more horrifying experience than the last incarnation all based on "karmic check and balances" that said spirit has no idea of where it currently stands and only the Angels know of.

We still haven't cleared up whether the angels are focused on your well-being, or on the global well-being of all the spirits. Since the whole system is based on interactions between incarnated spirits, how do the metrics for evolution work? Is it the sum of all karma for everyone? Is it average daily balance of karma? Let's say the angels work out that humanity as a group will advance slightly (according to whatever metric) if they let some poor spirit get incarnated as a jerk like Hitler, whereupon he racks up an enormous amount of bad karma, but humanity as a whole has an unprecedented opportunity to work off their karma by helping each other deal with him.

Imagine that uncomfortable interview in the angel's office. "Hm, John, it appears you were raped and murdered as a child in your previous incarnation, and you've applied for a new incarnation to be a sort of do-over. Normally you'd be entitled to be a famous rock musician in your next life, but we've had something come down from the head office. It seems that some bloke named Jonas Salk is set to do some wonderful things, and we need you to go back as one of his short-lived lab animals because it's in the greater public interest for you to die a horrible death again. Right, off you go."

Scorpion tells us there's a lot of spirits waiting for their day in the sun, so it's not like beggars can be choosers. And it's not like you can just ignore the angels' wishes. Or can you?

 

[Gamolon]

We still haven't cleared up whether the angels are focused on your well-being, or on the global well-being of all the spirits. Since the whole system is based on interactions between incarnated spirits, how do the metrics for evolution work? Is it the sum of all karma for everyone? Is it average daily balance of karma? Let's say the angels work out that humanity as a group will advance slightly (according to whatever metric) if they let some poor spirit get incarnated as a jerk like Hitler, whereupon he racks up an enormous amount of bad karma, but humanity as a whole has an unprecedented opportunity to work off their karma by helping each other deal with him.

Imagine that uncomfortable interview in the angel's office. "Hm, John, it appears you were raped and murdered as a child in your previous incarnation, and you've applied for a new incarnation to be a sort of do-over. Normally you'd be entitled to be a famous rock musician in your next life, but we've had something come down from the head office. It seems that some bloke named Jonas Salk is set to do some wonderful things, and we need you to go back as one of his short-lived lab animals because it's in the greater public interest for you to die a horrible death again. Right, off you go."

Scorpion tells us there's a lot of spirits waiting for their day in the sun, so it's not like beggars can be choosers. And it's not like you can just ignore the angels' wishes. Or can you?

Something Scorpion said that I am trying to understand.

I think we have a choice whether to incarnate or not, but since we cannot progress in the spirit world, incarnation is a given.

Based on Scorpions teachings, here are some facts:
1. Spirits only remember their most recent past life
2. Spirits do not have any clue as to what their current karmic balance is
3. Spirits know they must continue to incarnate in order to balance their karmic debt, even though they have no clue where they stand
4. Angels of Karma are the only ones who know what a spirit's current karmic balance is
5. Angels of Karma know every experience, good or bad, an incarnation will give a spirit
6. Angels of Karma will pick an incarnation for a spirit that is best suited for it. The spirit has no clue what the incarnation holds for it

Based on the above facts, here are my questions:
1. What is the basis for a spirit's choice to either incarnate or not? If they have no clue of their current karmic balance or what a hand picked incarnation holds for them, what guides their choice? Especially if their past life was extremely horrible as they were raped/tortured/murdered. Why would they chance being put into another, more horrifying incarnation than the last?
2. How is being put into an incarnation that is destined to perform/receive whatever acts are foreseen considered free will? Example. Many spirits needed to suffer to pay for some bad karma brought on by past lives and were put into incarnations that would suffer due to Hitler and his soldiers. That means that Hitler's incarnation was predetermined to enforce/suggest these terrible sufferings needed by these spirits. How is that free will?

Your last point about ignoring the Angel's wishes... According to Scorpion, we can. We can choose to incarnate or not when an Angel of Karma suggests an incarnation. HOW and WHY a spirit chooses a particular incarnation is beyond me.

 

[Gamolon]

Every time I think about an Angel of Karma picking an incarnation for a spirit, I can't help but think of this picture...

 

[Scorpion]

So scorpion can you clarify something for me please?

You say that some people need to have suffering inflicted upon them due to some karmic balance sheet style affair correct?

People that have been cruel and done evil things in their lives initially find themselves in a dark region of the spirit world. Eventually it is made clear to them that the only way out of that dark place is to reincarnate and take the consequences of their actions. That may well mean they have an incarnation of suffering. This is not so much a punishment as a way of forcing changes in their soul. Pain and suffering may make them more compassionate to others.

 

[Scorpion]

Something Scorpion said that I am trying to understand.


Based on Scorpions teachings, here are some facts:
1. Spirits only remember their most recent past life
2. Spirits do not have any clue as to what their current karmic balance is
3. Spirits know they must continue to incarnate in order to balance their karmic debt, even though they have no clue where they stand
4. Angels of Karma are the only ones who know what a spirit's current karmic balance is
5. Angels of Karma know every experience, good or bad, an incarnation will give a spirit
6. Angels of Karma will pick an incarnation for a spirit that is best suited for it. The spirit has no clue what the incarnation holds for it

Based on the above facts, here are my questions:
1. What is the basis for a spirit's choice to either incarnate or not? If they have no clue of their current karmic balance or what a hand picked incarnation holds for them, what guides their choice? Especially if their past life was extremely horrible as they were raped/tortured/murdered. Why would they chance being put into another, more horrifying incarnation than the last?
2. How is being put into an incarnation that is destined to perform/receive whatever acts are foreseen considered free will? Example. Many spirits needed to suffer to pay for some bad karma brought on by past lives and were put into incarnations that would suffer due to Hitler and his soldiers. That means that Hitler's incarnation was predetermined to enforce/suggest these terrible sufferings needed by these spirits. How is that free will?

Your last point about ignoring the Angel's wishes... According to Scorpion, we can. We can choose to incarnate or not when an Angel of Karma suggests an incarnation. HOW and WHY a spirit chooses a particular incarnation is beyond me.

Spirits have the choice to incarnate or not, but if they have not achieved a state of grace they eventually realize the only was to spiritually evolve is to reincarnate. They do not get to choose the circumstances of the future life, because that is decided by the angels of karma.
Hitler's actions may have been foreseen, but it was still his choice to act as he did.

 

[abaddon]

People that have been cruel and done evil things in their lives initially find themselves in a dark region of the spirit world.

Oh. Now the spirit world has "regions". If true, then the spirit world has geography. Since you know so much about it, can you draw us a map? Of course not. You have simply introduced some new thing to distract from the things inconsistencies in the various notions you have already introduced.

The obvious question is how could you possibly know this? But you will once again answer that you read it on the back of a cereal packet somewhere.

Let me give you a tip. When you are awash with contradictions already, adding new claims will simply also add new contradictions.

Eventually it is made clear to them that the only way out of that dark place is to reincarnate and take the consequences of their actions.

By the angels of karma who are not allowed to interfere, yet interfere anyway?

That may well mean they have an incarnation of suffering. This is not so much a punishment as a way of forcing changes in their soul.

So a celestial North Korea, then?

Pain and suffering may make them more compassionate to others.

Or turn them into a psychopath.


Anyway, now that you have had some time to think about it, how do you feel about having conspired with others to steal from the poor?

Is it good karma, or bad karma?

 

[Thor 2]

People that have been cruel and done evil things in their lives initially find themselves in a dark region of the spirit world. Eventually it is made clear to them that the only way out of that dark place is to reincarnate and take the consequences of their actions. That may well mean they have an incarnation of suffering. This is not so much a punishment as a way of forcing changes in their soul. Pain and suffering may make them more compassionate to others.

Here we go again!

Such detailed knowledge of the goings on in the spirit world. How did you come by this knowledge? Via a medium (one who passed your genuine test), or was this the result of direct interaction with the spirit world?

 

[Scorpion]

Here we go again!

Such detailed knowledge of the goings on in the spirit world. How did you come by this knowledge? Via a medium (one who passed your genuine test), or was this the result of direct interaction with the spirit world?

I have a library of spiritualist books, such as.

Life in the world unseen, By Antony Borgia

A five volume set of books about the spirit world by The Rev G. Vale Owen.

Spirit teachings by Stainton Moses

 

[Scorpion]

Anyway, now that you have had some time to think about it, how do you feel about having conspired with others to steal from the poor?

Is it good karma, or bad karma?

I think that since I did not know the spirits were going to give me money until they did, I don't think I owe any karma on it. It was a decision they made to help me when I was down.

 

[Thor 2]

I have a library of spiritualist books, such as.

Life in the world unseen, By Antony Borgia

A five volume set of books about the spirit world by The Rev G. Vale Owen.

Spirit teachings by Stainton Moses

Antony Borgia, The Rev G. Vale Owen, and Stainton Moses are all the real thing then? Nothing fake about these guys, according to your rigorous examinations then?

 

[Scorpion]

Antony Borgia, The Rev G. Vale Owen, and Stainton Moses are all the real thing then? Nothing fake about these guys, according to your rigorous examinations then?

I cannot be sure, and will not be sure unless I wake up after I die and find its all true.

 

[JayUtah]

Plenty of religions have contradictions.

I wanted to go on to point out that there are contradictions and then there are contradictions.

I can have Doctrine A and Doctrine B, and they may seem superficially compatible. But with a little thought, I can probably come up with some consequent from each doctrine that ends up in conflict. "You have an obligation to do good," and "God will decide who suffers," are not overtly in conflict. But you note the interplay: "If I'm predestined to suffer, I have no incentive to do good." Now I'm sure that Jewish scholars spend a lot of time trying to find where, if any, there is middle ground. There are a lot of creative philosophies that propose to thread the needle between predestination and free will.

That's kind of how common law works, right? We have a law that says you can't enter or leave the HOV lane except at designated points. We have another law that says you must change lanes if there's an emergency vehicle stopped adjacent to your lane. Those laws aren't an inherent contradiction. But if I'm in the HOV lane and encounter an emergency vehicle in the adjacent shoulder, I have to choose which law to break. Luckily a judge may rule that for this specific fact pattern, one law precedes the other -- in this case (from experience) the "move over" mandate becomes an exception to the "don't cross the streams" mandate. You're not really flip-flopping; you're just exploring the boundary.

But then there is the kind of contradiction that where a person says on Monday that his god doesn't interfere with the lives of his subjects, and then on Tuesday says that his god is intimately involved in directing his subjects' lives. That's a direct contradiction -- two allegations of fact that are facially contradictory. That's more like what we're getting in this thread.

 

[JayUtah]

I cannot be sure, and will not be sure unless I wake up after I die and find its all true.

But you could also wake up after you die and find it was all false. Or you could not wake up at all. There is a great incentive to ascertain to a certain degree in this life that what people allege as fact is actual fact.

What can you do in this life to ascertain that these authors actually know what they're talking about? Just because they wrote a book doesn't mean the book contains fact.

 

[Scorpion]

But you could also wake up after you die and find it was all false. Or you could not wake up at all. There is a great incentive to ascertain to a certain degree in this life that what people allege as fact is actual fact.

What can you do in this life to ascertain that these authors actually know what they're talking about? Just because they wrote a book doesn't mean the book contains fact.

The only thing you can do to determine if these authors are telling the truth is to subject their writings to critical analysis . Much as you do to me.
That can be complicated, and take a long time. But I rejected 'the secret doctrine' of Madame Blavatsky because for one thing it says there was an Atlantis in the Atlantic. But we have maps of the sea bed that show this cannot be true.
But not all books contain such easily refuted claims.