UK - December 2019 General Election

[Ian Osborne]

Awesome article here, from the New York Times, on what an utter shambles the UK General Election has become.

 

[Darat]

We can start with their Brexit no-policy 'policy' that sees Labour trail behind the organizers behind the kingpins of the most destructive policy of the generation for the second election in a row.



McHrozni

Labour will offer a 2nd referendum. Seems a sensible idea to me.

 

[The Don]

Labour will offer a 2nd referendum. Seems a sensible idea to me.

That's the current policy. I wonder if that would still be the policy in the unlikely event that Labour end up with a majority.

Still it's better than the Conservative policy and despite all my misgivings, I'll be tactically voting Labour.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Still it's better than the Conservative policy and despite all my misgivings, I'll be tactically voting Labour.

I think I'll be voting Labour because my local Labour MP is a nice bloke and works hard to represent the constituency. I want to have a positive reason rather than a negative one; voting against rather than voting for is what's got us into the mess we're in at the moment.

Dave

 

[Ian Osborne]

I think I'll be voting Labour because my local Labour MP is a nice bloke and works hard to represent the constituency. I want to have a positive reason rather than a negative one; voting against rather than voting for is what's got us into the mess we're in at the moment.

You're not wrong, but I'd consider voting for the devil himself if it kept Johnson out of Number 10. But then, my local Labour candidate is a great guy, and the sitting Tory MP briefly lost the party whip for using the phrase, 'n- in a woodpile' in a public meeting, so I guess I have something positive to vote for too.

 

[Trebuchet]

Eleven days to go. Eleven days is a long time in politics.

Not in American politics. Presidential campaigns last a minimum of four years.

I don't envy you guys for the mess you seem to be in, but I do envy the brevity of it.

 

[jimbob]

Not in American politics. Presidential campaigns last a minimum of four years.

I don't envy you guys for the mess you seem to be in, but I do envy the brevity of it.

What, since June 2016?

I was discussing with colleagues in California, but we couldn't come to a consensus which of our countries was more borked. I think the consensus came down to the UK.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

The politicians are not suppose to ask the public what is their opinion, then shout it from rooftops. They're supposed to ask the difficult questions, give difficult answers and then persuade the public their answers are indeed the best solution for the nation.

This

 

[lobosrul5]

What, since June 2016?

I was discussing with colleagues in California, but we couldn't come to a consensus which of our countries was more borked. I think the consensus came down to the UK.

I think this one poll shows USA is most borked:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/poll-78-of-gop-fox-news-viewers-say-trump-is-best-president-ever

Not only can we not remove a President who has used his office as leverage to get dirt on his opponents, a huge slice of the country think he's the best ever.

 

[Darat]

What, since June 2016?



I was discussing with colleagues in California, but we couldn't come to a consensus which of our countries was more borked. I think the consensus came down to the UK.

Yeah, Trump is time limited, Johnson isn't.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Yeah, Trump is time limited, Johnson isn't.

And short of starting a nuclear war Trump has fewer obvious opportunities to do anything irreversible.

 

[McHrozni]

Labour will offer a 2nd referendum. Seems a sensible idea to me.

Labour will negotiate a new super-duper deal and will offer a referendum on it, if it's not super-duper enough. Or else offer a referendum on Tory Brexit and stay neutral. Or something. Maybe.

There are too many shades of "second referendum" for the policy to be sensible by itself.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

Ten days to go and it looks as if Tories will scrape by a small majority.

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

Mid range:
Tory: 342
Labour: 226
SNP: 44
LibDem: 15
DUP: 8
SF: 7
Plaid: 4
Alliance: 3
Green: 1

This has been updated, the new mid range predictions are:
Tory: 340
Labour: 228

The rest are the same.

Note: I corrected the typo in the cited post, the prediction for Tories was 342 seats, not 324 seats.

There seems to be a painfully slow drift from Tory to Labour. We'll see with the next couple of updates if we can draw conclusions from this or if this is just random noise.

McHrozni

 

[Dave Rogers]

Labour will negotiate a new super-duper deal and will offer a referendum on it, if it's not super-duper enough. Or else offer a referendum on Tory Brexit and stay neutral. Or something. Maybe.

You're talking like a pro-Tory tabloid. Labour has made it pretty clear; it will negotiate the deal that it judges the best it can given its political priorities, and will then offer a choice in a referendum between leaving with that deal or remaining in the EU. The remarkable thing is not that Labour has announced its intention to do this, but that anyone can seriously maintain that it's an unreasonable course of action.

Dave

 

[McHrozni]

You're talking like a pro-Tory tabloid. Labour has made it pretty clear; it will negotiate the deal that it judges the best it can given its political priorities, and will then offer a choice in a referendum between leaving with that deal or remaining in the EU.

I'm reasonably certain the Guardian is neither pro-Tory nor a tabloid.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ferendum-is-between-its-brexit-deal-or-remain
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-pledge-to-stay-neutral-in-second-referendum

Again, it is not for politicians to ask the electorate what their opinion should be, then defend the prevailing opinion. Their job is to determine what is the best course of action forward and work to convince the electorate their solution or approach is the way to go. This is what LibDems and SNP (and Democrats in USA) are doing, but Labour and Tory became clownish populist parties both at once. Referendums don't (or shouldn't) ask the public what to do next. Referendums (should) ask whether the electorate is sufficiently persuaded to back this proposal.The Brexit referendum was used in the wrong way and is the base reason for three and a half years of agony without a solution in sight. Labour proposal is to renegotiate the deal again, as though their wishes were somehow realistic. They are not.

The remarkable thing is not that Labour has announced its intention to do this, but that anyone can seriously maintain that it's an unreasonable course of action.

The reasonable course of action would be to take a stance of what kind of a Brexit they want to back and propose a realistic deal and campaign to have it approved in a referendum. If no realistic deal can be made they should say so and campaign for Bremain. The proposal "we'll negotiate something way, way better and then ask you whether you support it or not, while staying silent on our opinion" is a politician or a political party dodging the very essence of their job.

Labour proposal is better than what Tories offer but that's not an impressive bar to set.

McHrozni

 

[The Don]

Looks like that Magic Money Tree is thriving....

Tax cuts and spending increases if the Conservatives win

Boris Johnson has promised to pass his Brexit deal and bring a Budget within 100 days if he is elected PM.

The Tory leader says it would include his pledge to raise the National Insurance threshold to £9,500, along with cash for schools and the NHS.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50666262

I'm confident that any increase in budget for the NHS will be more than swallowed up by increased drug costs as a result of whatever disastrous US trade agreement that Boris Johnson manages to foist on us post-Brexit

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Brexit Party seems to be slowly disintegrating as the far right nutbag slot is being so well filled by the Tories that they have very little else to offer than getting Farage on the telly to promote Tory policies.

 

[Ian Osborne]

Brexit Party seems to be slowly disintegrating as the far right nutbag slot is being so well filled by the Tories that they have very little else to offer than getting Farage on the telly to promote Tory policies.

Yeah, they've just lost Jacob Rees-Mogg's sister. It seems that family is a liability whatever party they're in.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I think I've made up my mind to hold my nose and vote Lib Dem. It's no doubt still futile but it's ever so slightly minisculely less futile than voting Green possibly. Really not bloody happy about it either. But have to do whatever I can to stop the Tories winning. And really everybody else should do the same especially in places where i might make a difference
.

 

[Darat]

Labour will negotiate a new super-duper deal and will offer a referendum on it, if it's not super-duper enough. Or else offer a referendum on Tory Brexit and stay neutral. Or something. Maybe.



There are too many shades of "second referendum" for the policy to be sensible by itself.



McHrozni

They have said they will have a brexit deal as one option and remain as another. That doesn't sound very confusing to me.