• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker - Part II

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think that your criticisms of Warren are pretty overwhelmingly off base.

Warren talks the talk, but has no follow through. If she were to secure the nomination, she is going to gallop back towards a centrist position. She's already retreating from her earlier stance on universal single payer. She will continue to flee from her more bold progressive stances as she feels is politically expedient.

Sanders has a track record of not wavering on these pivotal positions. He's rock solid on these issues.
 
Nobody likes their insurance. They like the staff at their clinics & hospitals, not the middleman whose only roles are to take a bunch more money than necessary and still block them from getting help when they need it.

I really want to see some data from these people that keep spouting the "people like their plans" line. How many people actually like their insurance scheme?

I have relatively good insurance through my work and it still sucks. My employer pays nearly all the premium, but the insurance system itself is inherently stressful. It's a game of making sure every little thing, every doctor, every clinic, every drug, is covered by my plan or else I end up with a giant bill in the mail a couple months later. All the tax deferred HSA's and other such BS plans aren't going to polish this turd of a system.

Of course, my good plan is only good so long as I remain employed. That's fine for little health problems, but a catastrophic health problem would still financially ruin our family. Basically, if I get ill enough to have to leave work, it's a ticking clock until my short and long term leave benefits are exhausted and I'm laid off. Then I have the "option" of continuing my care, at my expense through COBRA, which I won't be able to afford as I'm not making any income. Eventually I run out of money to cover the premiums, deductibles, and copays and I get thrown off my plan and I'm uninsured. Hooray

A serious health problem with myself or my wife would be enough to drive a dual income, no children middle class family into poverty, and it's only worse for people less well off.

This isn't an exaggeration. A coworker of mine had cancer and was coming into work well passed the point of medical prudence. She was trying to maximize how long her benefits would last, because once she stopped coming in, the slow crush of reduced pay and increasing bills would grind her into submission. It would be a better financial solution for the cancer to kill her quickly, so that her life insurance payout would exceed her medical expenses. This is the grim calculus of private insurance.

Almost nobody likes their insurance plan, except for the few people with old-fashioned union-negotiated or government employee coverage. It's an inherently horrible system. People are apprehensive of change, as is the human condition, but nobody would miss it.

High deductible plans are only going to become more common, so they don't even cover the little expenses. When I'm healthy, my bills don't ever exceed the deductible amount, so I'm paying 100% for all the little things. If I get catastrophically ill, the plan will still financially derail my family. These plans suck in all scenarios.
 
Last edited:
I really want to see some data from these people that keep spouting the "people like their plans" line. How many people actually like their insurance scheme?

I have relatively good insurance through my work and it still sucks. My employer pays nearly all the premium, but the insurance system itself is inherently stressful. It's a game of making sure every little thing, every doctor, every clinic, every drug, is covered by my plan or else I end up with a giant bill in the mail a couple months later. All the tax deferred HSA's and other such BS plans aren't going to polish this turd of a system.

Of course, my good plan is only good so long as I remain employed. That's fine for little health problems, but a catastrophic health problem would still financially ruin our family. Basically, if I get ill enough to have to leave work, it's a ticking clock until my short and long term leave benefits are exhausted and I'm laid off. Then I have the "option" of continuing my care, at my expense through COBRA, which I won't be able to afford as I'm not making any income. Eventually I run out of money to cover the premiums, deductibles, and copays and I get thrown off my plan and I'm uninsured. Hooray

A serious health problem with myself or my wife would be enough to drive a dual income, no children middle class family into poverty, and it's only worse for people less well off.

This isn't an exaggeration. A coworker of mine had cancer and was coming into work well passed the point of medical prudence. She was trying to maximize how long her benefits would last, because once she stopped coming in, the slow crush of reduced pay and increasing bills would grind her into submission.

Almost nobody likes their insurance plan, except for the few people with old-fashioned union-negotiated or government employee coverage. It's an inherently horrible system. People are apprehensive of change, as is the human condition, but nobody would miss it.

High deductible plans are only going to become more common, so they don't even cover the little expenses. When I'm healthy, my bills don't ever exceed the deductible amount, so I'm paying 100% for all the little things. If I get catastrophically ill, the plan will still financially derail my family. These plans suck in all scenarios.


I think you are misreading that claim that people like their insurance. I think the number is around 70%.


If I told you that of the people that eat at my restaurant 70% liked the food, is that a good restaurant?
 
It’s pretty damning of Biden when people can’t believe his performances aren’t faked to make him look bad. No, that’s genu-wine Biden and no marlarkey!

To clarify: I'm not saying it's altered. I said that in the near future, spotting fakes is going to become incredibly difficult.
 
That's not a filter through which I view things.
At least within your last few posts on this subject, it's the only way you've been looking at it, as you demonstrated again in the same post:

What I have commented on is (1) the risk of non electability for candidates who promote it
The risk of electability of candidates who support something the people want

(2) the obvious fact that the odds of implementation, even if Sanders or Warren gets the nomination, is roughly 0%
The obvious fact that the way politics works this time on this subject must be completely different from the way it's ever been before on any other subject, where things routinely got done that were opposed before they got done, but only if they had people actually trying to get them done
 
An anecdote...


... that's nowhere near as convincing as you think it is.

As opposed to what you offered which was


Also, you didn't address the idea of unions having more leverage. Or that unions could then get the money saved in private health insurance plans as pay raises for the workers. The workers can then go an buy their own supplemental coverage as a ...choice.

"Now you know" is highly presumptuous and pompous. Funny(?) that you wrote that in reply to a post in which I called out precisely that sort of discourteous bs.

Oh, so you don't know. Maybe you should go catch up before you try to add to the conversation.
 
Last edited:
Union members have had their insurance plans gradually stripped away steadily for decades now, along with pensions and other benefits.

Which is funny because a lot of that was due to the same Third Way Democrats who are trying to speak for unions now.

Plus, union-provided or not, insurance companies are still insurance companies and will always care more about profit than actually providing care. Around ten years ago (shortly before he had to retire due to disability) my dad's union healthcare provider tried to use a technicality to avoid paying for an expensive procedure. At the time, my dad had to have two surgeries, and took time off to have both back-to-back. Because my dad technically wasn't working when the second procedure took place, they said they didn't have to pay for it. If my dad didn't have documentation of the company telling him to schedule the procedures like that, they probably would have gotten away with it. A year or two later, one of his friends in the same union was diagnosed with cancer and ended up going bankrupt because their insurance refused to pay his medical bills as the result of a similar technicality. Yes, literally bankrupt - the last time I saw the guy he was gaunt and living out of his car that was parked at the shipyard he worked at. Seeing that has made me incredibly skeptical of the typical talking points about protecting union insurance plans; even when speaking positively about their insurance, my dad and his friends would still regularly complain about how much their benefits would be cut every year.

I'm not i na union but have what is a considered a really good insurance plan through my job. The hurdles my wife and I still need to jump is insane. And for stuff being prescribed by our doctors that are explicitly covered in the plan.

Like Delvo said, no one likes their health insurance. People like having access to healthcare, and that's something an increasing amount of people - even union workers - can't count on anymore, and they know that. Having access to health coverage is all anyone will care about. Assuming they won't understand that they'll have coverage regardless of where it's coming from comes off as patronizing to me.

Precisely. And it doesn't help that some candidates are bringing up a right wing talking point of "choice" when health insurance companies are hell bent on restricting our choice of doctors, hospitals, treatments, etc.



It's at the very least buying into the republican framing wholesale. There's no use trying to discuss a better healthcare system if you're already conceding the point that there's no way it's going to work. Talking about it in the terms you keep using is incredibly counterproductive.

Its almost like taking money from the same people donating to Republicans makes you more susceptible to Republican talking points.
 
At least within your last few posts on this subject, it's the only way you've been looking at it, as you demonstrated again in the same post:

You misunderstood varwoche's post. He says that he doesn't think in terms of 'which party said what' in order to avoid saying something that one party says and the other reflexively disagrees with.

A statement is either true or it isn't.
 

To republicans, diversity means having token politicians that still advocate the party line that is harmful to vulnerable and minority communities. You know, like having Michelle Malkin going around saying internment camps were a good thing.

The idea that a black democrat might prefer a white candidate with better policies is anathema to their understanding of racial politics. Harris dropping out is proof that the Democratic party is racist, and not just evidence that her campaign was very unappealing to pretty much everyone.
 
Last edited:
You misunderstood varwoche's post. He says that he doesn't think in terms of 'which party said what' in order to avoid saying something that one party says and the other reflexively disagrees with.
Precisely, thank you.

Like many people who fancy themselves as critical thinkers, I try to operate on a true/false real/unreal spectrum (emphasis on try). If facts align with what "the bad guys" say, ouch and oh well. I don't know why this is hard to grasp.

When someone tosses out "Republican talking point!" to a person who is clearly(?) a leftie such as me, the subtext is get in line. Tribalism runs deep.

In case anyone cares, I most certainly will be "in line" after there's a nominee. I will wholeheartedly support whoever the candidate is. (Within the realm of possibility. The last time I posted this sentiment, someone replied with the insightful question "What if Manson is nominated?".)

In case anyone cares part 2, I really, really wish we could get MFA! I also wish for a pony under the xmas tree and that Hiromi would carry my baby.
 
Tribalism runs deep.

In case anyone cares, I most certainly will be "in line" after there's a nominee. I will wholeheartedly support whoever the candidate is. (Within the realm of possibility. The last time I posted this sentiment, someone replied with the insightful question "What if Manson is nominated?".)

Point scoring also runs deep.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom