Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

[Orphia Nay]

From the study from 2000 that Ziggurat posted:

"in a 1992 survey of American women aged eighteen and older, 13 percent of the respondents reported having been the victim of at least one rape, where rape was defined as unwelcome oral, anal or vaginal penetration achieved through the use or threat of force."

More women acknowledge now they'd been raped than they did in 1992.

Rape is when a woman says no, and continues to say no.

It's also when a woman feels threatened or fears the use of force.

The "threat of force" is ever-present.

I was terribly anxious and confused for many years after several incidents of rape. I never told anyone, except I told one person about the incident my arms were held down while he did it.

Men's fear of having raped a woman affects women's fears of having been raped.

Our fears have so much power over us. They're our survival instincts, along with fight, flight, and ways we assert and defend ourselves. Males and females are very different, due to biology.

People who believe that rape is only a result of violence don't acknowledge that men are stronger than women.

As a runner, I'm painfully aware of the physical "domination" of men in sport, not just in social situations. I was talking to a male friend today who is having chemo for cancer.

He complained to me he'd been feeling great, but after being started on drugs to reduce testosterone, he can't run as fast and "felt terrible" because of that.

When I replied, "Welcome to how the other half live", he said, "I can't believe how many women all say that".

We have this constant fear of being inferior, and of being attacked by something stronger than us, and being unable to outrun it.

The domination of "Man" over "Nature" and the conceptual separation of Man(Human) and Nature is a huge problem in "civilisation" that could lead to one of my Entanglement rants about the climate emergency.

We deny we're "animals" to our own detriment.

When a man won't listen to the words "no", a woman fears male's natural physical strength used against them.

When we say no to a drink, then no to a kiss, then a hug, then a feel...

When does a rape become a rape?

After the first no, the second no, or how many nos?

A woman knows when a man isn't listening to "no" and fears starting an act of physical resistance.

A man is driven by evolutionary psychology to want to be strong, reproduce his genes, release his anxieties about his physical ability to survive. It's not merely about sex.

Men who deny rape can be so worried about admitting they have raped someone, that they are afraid to understand the issues we both face.

Women, too are driven to reproduce (not merely have sex) and often dress to express or protest their status. Dressing "provocatively" to protest rape and inequality is too complicated and cerebral for our human, physical instincts of fight and flight and many of our fear and release impulses.

I feared I'd done something "wrong" by being raped, yet I couldn't understand what, when I didn't enjoy any of it and had tried to protest and wasn't listened to.

Like it or not, we wear less clothes in bed, and can dress as if that's where we "should" be.

Men fear they've done something "wrong" in a situation like a rape.

Can we forgive ourselves for being animals?

Can we forgive ourselves for being animals when we treat so many animals vastly differently?

Can we forgive ourselves for being aggressive when we are so cruel to the guilty?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

No, Archie, it’s not fine. My views are supported by science. Your views are dogma invented by a radical feminist to support a political agenda, with no supporting evidence and based on false beliefs about biological reality.

I know you keep saying that. But you have some way to go before you have shown it to be true. So far we have exactly what I said 'two competing views'

Yes. Sexual arousal makes sexual predators more likely to attack. How is that not obvious?

Because it isn't. Because nudity is not the same as sexual arousal and because you haven't shown any evidence that nudity is linked to sexual assault. All you keep doing is repeating how it's obvious to you. Well it isn't obvious to me and I doubt it's true. As I said, this can be resolved pretty easily when you link to data.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Can you relate Archie?

Of course I can relate, and don't think it's only women that feel this way though I accept its exacerbated for women.

The problem for me is when we go from 'this makes me uncomfortable regardless of the objective risk' (which is fine) to then add 'and therefore we need to discriminate against trans people'

Because that's a jump that I am just not prepared to make, yet.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I know, I know. "Unsupported assertion" or something..

Well I'm glad you said that to save me the trouble.

 

[Rolfe]

FI was talking to a male friend today who is having chemo for cancer.

He complained to me he'd been feeling great, but after being started on drugs to reduce testosterone, he can't run as fast and "felt terrible" because of that.

When I replied, "Welcome to how the other half live", he said, "I can't believe how many women all say that."

I found this blog article interesting in the same context.
FI was talking to a male friend today who is having chemo for cancer.He complained to me he'd been feeling great, but after being started on drugs to reduce testosterone, he can't run as fast and "felt terrible" because of that.When I replied, "Welcome to how the other half live", he said, "I can't believe how many women all say that."[/quote] I found this blog article interesting in the same context.Finishing what I started https://duncanspence.blog/2019/11/08/finishing-what-i-started/

I confessed to Martyn at the summit that at lunch as we sat in the meagre sun, out of the wind, but still very cold, I was having doubts, unsure whether I would be able to make it to the top. Because my body has been deprived of the major chemical necessary to motivate it, I can only make myself do things using my mind, I cannot rely on the pure masculinity of my drive. This is not an easy idea to express, for unless testosterone is no longer doing what it once did, its effects remain largely unnoticed, as they blend into the ordinary conduct of life. Like most other men, being still endowed with his natural biochemical complement, Martyn cannot experience this, but he listens well as I rant, and sees how the most obvious effect of my medication – the flushes – seriously screw around with my ability to regulate temperature. When every couple of hours, a layer of sweat seeps out to cocoon my body, no matter what the ambient temperature nor activity level, keeping warm becomes part of a delicate balance with drying off. Practically, it is a matter of experimenting with layers, but in this cold the challenges are more complex and the whole chemical castration thing saps my spirit, threatening at every moment to pull me down into a dark unhealthy place.

I don't think women have any real understanding of what it is like to be a man and to have that "motivation" all the time. Women who have taken testosterone try to describe it, and it does seem pretty transformative.But removing testosterone doesn't turn a man into a woman and I think Duncan would be pretty offended if any one suggested that was the case."]
Finishing what I started

I confessed to Martyn at the summit that at lunch as we sat in the meagre sun, out of the wind, but still very cold, I was having doubts, unsure whether I would be able to make it to the top. Because my body has been deprived of the major chemical necessary to motivate it, I can only make myself do things using my mind, I cannot rely on the pure masculinity of my drive. This is not an easy idea to express, for unless testosterone is no longer doing what it once did, its effects remain largely unnoticed, as they blend into the ordinary conduct of life. Like most other men, being still endowed with his natural biochemical complement, Martyn cannot experience this, but he listens well as I rant, and sees how the most obvious effect of my medication – the flushes – seriously screw around with my ability to regulate temperature. When every couple of hours, a layer of sweat seeps out to cocoon my body, no matter what the ambient temperature nor activity level, keeping warm becomes part of a delicate balance with drying off. Practically, it is a matter of experimenting with layers, but in this cold the challenges are more complex and the whole chemical castration thing saps my spirit, threatening at every moment to pull me down into a dark unhealthy place.

I don't think women have any real understanding of what it is like to be a man and to have that "motivation" all the time. Women who have taken testosterone try to describe it, and it does seem pretty transformative.

But removing testosterone doesn't turn a man into a woman and I think Duncan would be pretty offended if any one suggested that was the case.

 

[Rolfe]

... 'and therefore we need to discriminate against trans people'

This makes me very uncomfortable. Nobody has ever used these quoted words. Nobody is setting out to "discriminate against transwomen" (let's be honest, it's the males who want to occupy women's spaces we're talking about here).

Transwomen are biologically male, and cannot ever be otherwise. Sanitary and sleeping arrangements are segregated by biological sex. Males who become transwomen are asking/demanding a concession, not a right - the concession to be allowed to occupy the single-sex spaces of the opposite sex.

Framing this as if it is unquestionably "discrimination" not to accede to this request (demand) is a dishonest argument. It's part of the constant attempt to smear those who advocate for women's rights as being comparable to racists. I find it contemptible.

 

[Ziggurat]

I know you keep saying that. But you have some way to go before you have shown it to be true. So far we have exactly what I said 'two competing views'

My view is supported by the evidence. Your view has no evidence. They are not equivalent.

Because it isn't. Because nudity is not the same as sexual arousal

I didn’t say nudity was the same as sexual arousal. But it frequently leads to sexual arousal. The entire pornography industry is based on that fact. And there are plenty of scientific studies which show that males are sexually aroused by nudity, much more so than females.

 

[Meadmaker]

Of course I can relate, and don't think it's only women that feel this way though.

Obviously, you can't.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I didn’t say nudity was the same as sexual arousal. But it frequently leads to sexual arousal. The entire pornography industry is based on that fact. And there are plenty of scientific studies which show that males are sexually aroused by nudity, much more so than females.

Pornography involves more than mere nudity, though. To attribute the allure of porn to the subjects being naked is really stretching it.

Are males sexually aroused by a woman they specifically don't want to see nude? Perhaps males like to see another person they are already (aesthetically) attracted to nude.

So it might not be the nudity itself, once again?

And did this study go further than noting the trend or did it conclusively prove that this is an innate and immutable truth of men, totally slamming the door on the social explanation?

ETA: Go to a nude beach, strut around with your raging...um...arousal, leer at all the "hot chicks", snicker at all the men who's blood is down (and how many of them there are!). You'll probably get an introduction to how not effective "dude, all these chicks are naked, what do you expect?" is when the wrong kind of attention keeps coming your way.

Nudity being frowned on outside of sexual contexts makes nudity only happen during sexy time means nudity "is" sexual. It's all a self-reinforcing delusion.

 

[Ziggurat]

Pornography involves more than mere nudity, though. To attribute the allure of porn to the subjects being naked is really stretching it.

I can only conclude from this that you are not a male.

Are males sexually aroused by a woman they specifically don't want to see nude? Perhaps males like to see another person they are already (aesthetically) attracted to nude.

So it might not be the nudity itself, once again?

That doesn't even make sense. Nudity is never "by itself". It's always a specific person which is nude. And it doesn't matter if some specific males are not aroused by some specific females being nude. The chances that a male will be sexually aroused by a female are still higher if that female is nude.

Nudity being frowned on outside of sexual contexts makes nudity only happen during sexy time means nudity "is" sexual. It's all a self-reinforcing delusion.

Let's suppose for a moment that nudity is only sexually arousing because we aren't socialized to accept nudity as the norm. Then what? Are we going to change that? Are we going to become a society of nudists who do not sexualize nudity at all? No. We are not going to do that. That has no chance of happening. For the purposes of assessing the risks associated with being nude, we have to consider the society we actually live in. What might happen in some hypothetical society which will never describe our actual one simply doesn't matter.

 

[p0lka]

I found this blog article interesting in the same context.

Finishing what I started




I don't think women have any real understanding of what it is like to be a man and to have that "motivation" all the time. Women who have taken testosterone try to describe it, and it does seem pretty transformative.

But removing testosterone doesn't turn a man into a woman and I think Duncan would be pretty offended if any one suggested that was the case.

I'm a man and I don't understand that "motivation" thing that you are referring to.

Let's not paint everyone with the same brush.

 

[mgidm86]

From the study from 2000 that Ziggurat posted:

"in a 1992 survey of American women aged eighteen and older, 13 percent of the respondents reported having been the victim of at least one rape, where rape was defined as unwelcome oral, anal or vaginal penetration achieved through the use or threat of force."

More women acknowledge now they'd been raped than they did in 1992.

Rape is when a woman says no, and continues to say no.

It's also when a woman feels threatened or fears the use of force.
The "threat of force" is ever-present.

I was terribly anxious and confused for many years after several incidents of rape. I never told anyone, except I told one person about the incident my arms were held down while he did it.

Men's fear of having raped a woman affects women's fears of having been raped.
Our fears have so much power over us. They're our survival instincts, along with fight, flight, and ways we assert and defend ourselves. Males and females are very different, due to biology.

People who believe that rape is only a result of violence don't acknowledge that men are stronger than women.

As a runner, I'm painfully aware of the physical "domination" of men in sport, not just in social situations. I was talking to a male friend today who is having chemo for cancer.

He complained to me he'd been feeling great, but after being started on drugs to reduce testosterone, he can't run as fast and "felt terrible" because of that.

When I replied, "Welcome to how the other half live", he said, "I can't believe how many women all say that".

We have this constant fear of being inferior, and of being attacked by something stronger than us, and being unable to outrun it.

The domination of "Man" over "Nature" and the conceptual separation of Man(Human) and Nature is a huge problem in "civilisation" that could lead to one of my Entanglement rants about the climate emergency.

We deny we're "animals" to our own detriment.

When a man won't listen to the words "no", a woman fears male's natural physical strength used against them.

When we say no to a drink, then no to a kiss, then a hug, then a feel...

When does a rape become a rape?

After the first no, the second no, or how many nos?

A woman knows when a man isn't listening to "no" and fears starting an act of physical resistance.

A man is driven by evolutionary psychology to want to be strong, reproduce his genes, release his anxieties about his physical ability to survive. It's not merely about sex.

Men who deny rape can be so worried about admitting they have raped someone, that they are afraid to understand the issues we both face.

Women, too are driven to reproduce (not merely have sex) and often dress to express or protest their status. Dressing "provocatively" to protest rape and inequality is too complicated and cerebral for our human, physical instincts of fight and flight and many of our fear and release impulses.

I feared I'd done something "wrong" by being raped, yet I couldn't understand what, when I didn't enjoy any of it and had tried to protest and wasn't listened to.

Like it or not, we wear less clothes in bed, and can dress as if that's where we "should" be.

Men fear they've done something "wrong" in a situation like a rape.

Can we forgive ourselves for being animals?

Can we forgive ourselves for being animals when we treat so many animals vastly differently?

Can we forgive ourselves for being aggressive when we are so cruel to the guilty?

Not just the highlighted, by any means, but...what?

 

[mgidm86]

This makes me very uncomfortable. Nobody has ever used these quoted words. Nobody is setting out to "discriminate against transwomen" (let's be honest, it's the males who want to occupy women's spaces we're talking about here).

Transwomen are biologically male, and cannot ever be otherwise. Sanitary and sleeping arrangements are segregated by biological sex. Males who become transwomen are asking/demanding a concession, not a right - the concession to be allowed to occupy the single-sex spaces of the opposite sex.

Framing this as if it is unquestionably "discrimination" not to accede to this request (demand) is a dishonest argument. It's part of the constant attempt to smear those who advocate for women's rights as being comparable to racists. I find it contemptible.

 

[Belz...]

Well I'm glad you said that to save me the trouble.

I guess you missed the rest of his post, then.

 

[Belz...]

Pornography involves more than mere nudity, though.

Plenty of it does involve only nudity.

It's more complex than just nudity, but it's an important component.

Why do you think some men peep? There's no context for the nudity and yet it arouses them. Etc. This isn't some new scientific revelation. Humans have known this stuff for thousands of years.

 

[Giz]

Plenty of it does involve only nudity.

It's more complex than just nudity, but it's an important component.

Why do you think some men peep? There's no context for the nudity and yet it arouses them. Etc. This isn't some new scientific revelation. Humans have known this stuff for thousands of years.

It takes thousands of years to develop dogmatic intellectuals capable of ignoring the obvious.

 

[theprestige]

Rape is when a woman says no, and continues to say no.

It's also when a woman feels threatened or fears the use of force.

The "threat of force" is ever-present.

This sounds like you're saying all sex is rape. Can you clarify what you actually meant here?

 

[Belz...]

Rape is when a woman says no, and continues to say no.

Does this include the Japanese?

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Plenty of it does involve only nudity.



It's more complex than just nudity, but it's an important component.



Why do you think some men peep? There's no context for the nudity and yet it arouses them. Etc. This isn't some new scientific revelation. Humans have known this stuff for thousands of years.

Why do some men peep?

With all the completely free or relatively low cost and low risk nudity available without breaking laws or violating anyone's privacy, why peep at unwilling targets?

Maybe it's not about the nudity.

I'm amazed at how much heavy lifting some people do to normalize some of the most heinous behaviors.

 

[Ziggurat]

Why do some men peep?

With all the completely free or relatively low cost and low risk nudity available without breaking laws or violating anyone's privacy, why peep at unwilling targets?

Maybe it's not about the nudity.

Of course it's about the nudity. You could argue that it's not only the nudity, but the nudity is absolutely a part of it.

And in-person nudity is rarely free in this country outside of relationships. Yes, porn is available for free, but strip shows are not. And people often have a preference for in-person experiences, as the continued existence of live theater demonstrates. Peepers may also be motivated by a kink where the ignorance or unwillingness of the target is a component, but that doesn't make nudity irrelevant. It isn't.

I'm amazed at how much heavy lifting some people do to normalize some of the most heinous behaviors.

I'm amazed that you think acknowledging the obvious means we're normalizing heinous behaviors. No, we aren't. It doesn't work that way. For example, wanting money is a normal human desire. But acknowledging that people sometimes kill other people for money doesn't mean that killing other people for money is therefore acceptable in any way.