Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

[JayUtah]

I have not thrown out Silver Birch...

Except that you did, and then took him back when the argument suited.

As far as I am concerned other religions, like the three Abrahamic beliefs are full of obvious flaws.

And your "religion" is full of obvious flaws. It's a carnival act that you seem to have inexplicably taken seriously because it gives you warm fuzzy feelings. But let anyone else express warm fuzzy feelings about an Abrahamic religion and you're down their throats with critical analysis. Their convictions mean absolutely nothing to do, but in your case they excuse you from having to answer any of your critics.

Anyone who believes Jonah was swallowed by a whale is in cuckoo land.

See, lashing out with blatant insults. We point out that your beliefs are similarly nonsensical on their face, and you act like a whipped puppy. Even further, we tactfully suggest that your admitted mental illness might have something to do with your selective grasp of fact and belief, and you fall all over yourself trying to accuse your critics of putting you in "cuckoo land."

This is dishonest.

I don't ignore criticism of my beliefs, I just don't buy them.

You don't "buy them" because you say you have a personal warm fuzzy feeling about spiritualism that trumps facts, logic, and basic consistency from day to day. I can provide a long list of challenges against your beliefs that you've straight-up ignored, and I bet every other poster in this thread can do likewise. Every time you're backed into a corner you run away.

 

[Scorpion]

Well I am not running away, I am just going to bed because its 1.40 AM British time. Goodnight.

 

[Axxman300]

"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time, and it annoys the pig."

Robert Heinlein

Heinlein was on my paper route when I was a kid.

 

[Axxman300]

No I never asked spirit guides about Muhammad. I was not interested in him until the 9/11/01 WTC attack. Up until then I had not read the Quran. I started reading it with an open mind thinking it would be spiritual, but soon discovered it is mainly plagiarism from the bible, and it has horrible verses about hell that were clearly made up to scare people.
I can tell for myself that Muhammad was no messenger of God without having to ask any mediums.

I'm just going to assume your "Spirit Guides" didn't tip you off about the 9-11 plot in advance...which should clue you in about spirits knowing the future nonsense.

 

[Loss Leader]

I still think there is a spirit world and the spirits I have heard from all say there is a God. Which follows that there are angels carrying out Gods plan.

How does that follow. I have heard there is a writer in New York named Mandy Stadtmiller. Does it follow that she has minions carrying out her plans? I know for a fact there is a person in my house raising two children. Does it follow that I have elves running around helping me make dinner?

It is clear that God remains unassailable and above directly interfering in our lives.

But you just said that angels are carrying out his plan. How do they do that without interfering in our lives. Your entire spiritual belief system is influenced by psychic mediums who communicated with those angels. So, you're admitting that they changed the course of your life. Your two statements are inconsistent with each other. Which one is true?

Heinlein was on my paper route when I was a kid.

Did you ask him how lazarus Long got turned into a woman yet remained himself, because it has been bugging me for thirty years.

 

[Axxman300]

Did you ask him how lazarus Long got turned into a woman yet remained himself, because it has been bugging me for thirty years.

I didn't know who he was. I was 14 at the time. I kick myself whenever I see his name.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

T What true prophet of God would set people at war, and demand spoils of war?

The prophet of a god that thinks that we need wars to purify our souls, perhaps?

 

[JayUtah]

I didn't know who he was. I was 14 at the time. I kick myself whenever I see his name.

At 14 I definitely knew who Heinlein was. Can I kick you too?

 

[Gamolon]

Gamolon said , "How is that free will if the Angels of Karma decide everything for us? Including being put into incarnations that will force us to to cause or receive terrible experiences? We have no choice in the matter because the Angels of Karma picked it for us because they deemed it necessary for us to go through that in order to evolve! "

Most people are not believers in angels of karma, so their actions are of their own free will. They do not think they are accountable, so have freedom to act as they see fit. I assume the angels of karma can see everything, and weigh up the balance of things over untold ages, so they do not make mistakes.

Wait a minute.

Are you saying that simple disbelief in the Angels of Karma release us from the performing actions in the future they had foreseen when they chose that specific incarnation for us?

 

[Gamolon]

I don't say Hitler was guided against his control, I say he acted out of his own evil nature.

According to you, he had no choice in how his life would turn out because the Angels of Karma saw THE FUTURE.

Do you understand what you are even saying?

The Angels of Karma, according to you, look at incarnations and SEE THE THEIR FUTURE. There is no escaping the predetermined events of any incarnation. Why? Because the Angels of Karma NEED to know exactly what a spirit will experience in order to pay it's karmic debts. That's what you've been saying all along.

It goes something like this:

1. There is a spirit that has X amount of karmic debt
2. The Angels of Karma look at all the incarnations and the actions they will perform in the future
3. Based on the above two points, the Angels of Karma match what the foresee in an incarnation with what a particular spirit NEEDS to experience.

That's it.

According to what you're preaching, we have no choice as everything is laid out already.

 

[Gamolon]

I don't say Hitler was guided against his control, I say he acted out of his own evil nature.

It comes down to this.

It didn't matter which spirit, A, B, C, D, E, or any other spirit, was chosen by the Angels of Karma to incarnate into Hitler's life. The Angels of Karma had foreseen what Hitler's incarnation would do and any spirit chosen for it would be doomed to live out what was foreseen.

That's what you've been preaching to us.

 

[Gamolon]

Yes ! I believe God and the angels of karma can see the future.

If this is true, then how can people change what is foreseen?!

Why are you blind to your contradiction between what you deem as free will and God/Angels of Karma seeing what we WILL DO in the future!?

 

[Scorpion]

How does that follow. I have heard there is a writer in New York named Mandy Stadtmiller. Does it follow that she has minions carrying out her plans? I know for a fact there is a person in my house raising two children. Does it follow that I have elves running around helping me make dinner?


But you just said that angels are carrying out his plan. How do they do that without interfering in our lives. Your entire spiritual belief system is influenced by psychic mediums who communicated with those angels. So, you're admitting that they changed the course of your life. Your two statements are inconsistent with each other. Which one is true?

I believe in a God that is a formless ocean of consciousness. Such a God does not concern itself with the details of billions of peoples lives. That is why he created the angels. To deal with the mundane every day issues falls to an army of angels.

I said the angels do not 'directly' interfere in our lives. They can change what they foresee in subtle ways, like inspiring people by planting ideas in their minds.
But if the person does not take any notice of the ideas and continues to behave destructively, there is nothing the angels can do about it but watch.

Most people would know what I am talking about if I said we have a still small voice within that we call a conscience, this may sometimes be an angel or a spirit trying to guide us. If we listen the voice gets clearer, if we don't it fades away.

 

[Scorpion]

According to you, he had no choice in how his life would turn out because the Angels of Karma saw THE FUTURE.

Do you understand what you are even saying?

The Angels of Karma, according to you, look at incarnations and SEE THE THEIR FUTURE. There is no escaping the predetermined events of any incarnation. Why? Because the Angels of Karma NEED to know exactly what a spirit will experience in order to pay it's karmic debts. That's what you've been saying all along.

It goes something like this:

1. There is a spirit that has X amount of karmic debt
2. The Angels of Karma look at all the incarnations and the actions they will perform in the future
3. Based on the above two points, the Angels of Karma match what the foresee in an incarnation with what a particular spirit NEEDS to experience.

That's it.

According to what you're preaching, we have no choice as everything is laid out already.

We still get to choose if we do things the easy way, or the hard way. If people stop doing bad things and do good things instead they pay their karma by working, not just by suffering. Suffering is not a deliberate punishment as such, it is a way of teaching us qualities like empathy and compassion which we may lack.

 

[Scorpion]

If this is true, then how can people change what is foreseen?!

Why are you blind to your contradiction between what you deem as free will and God/Angels of Karma seeing what we WILL DO in the future!?

I think its probably like ' back to the future' or ' terminator'. Changing small things alters the timeline.
The angels can see what difference they might be able to make by inspiring someone. So the future can be rewritten.

 

[wasapi]

What strikes me about Scorpions spiritualism is how convenient it is. A tidy package of what makes him feel good, of how he wants it to be. Things he has read or heard somewhere is repeated as fact, as long as it supports what he wants to be true.

 

[JayUtah]

They can change what they foresee in subtle ways, like inspiring people by planting ideas in their minds.

"Subtle" meddling is still meddling. You've flip-flopped again, which means we're back to Sackett's very astute observation. If an author in a fantasy series says that it's fatal for a certain race of beings to touch gold, and then in the next chapter he has a character of that race drinking from a golden goblet, the reader would rightly regard the book as trash and its author as inattentive and incompetent.

But that's exactly what you do. You tell us the angels of karma control our destiny, and we should be glad of it. But then when you run up against the obvious problem of predestination and individual responsibility, you backpedal and tell us that the angels can't do anything to intervene. Now that you realize this renders them absolutely powerless, you're back to saying they meddle.

This is why people get frustrated trying to test your claims and why they justifiably accuse you of just making stuff up on the fly. If you can't stay consistent from day to day, you shouldn't expect the attention of reasonable people. You should expect to be laughed and, and you don't get to whine about it when that happens.

But if the person does not take any notice of the ideas and continues to behave destructively, there is nothing the angels can do about it but watch.

This fixes nothing. If the angels can see the future, they know whether the person will take their advice or not. That makes offering it moot. If the angels don't know whether a person will take their advice or not, then their vision of the future is clearly not deterministic enough for them to be in charge of people's karma and choosing how they will reincarnate. And if the angels have discretion over whether they will warn someone away from karma-producing actions or not, and fail to act, then they should be responsible for it.

You can't seem to figure out what the rest of us figured out a long time ago -- your system is inherently contradictory. It cannot be reconciled. And that's because you patched it together from entirely dissimilar religions.

Most people would know what I am talking about if I said we have a still small voice within that we call a conscience...

Yes, people tend to personify their conscience. But you're arguing that there's another person out there with his own agenda putting ideas into our heads. That other agenda is then liable, at least in part, for our actions. Yet in your model, the recipient gets the karma, not the meddler.

 

[Gamolon]

I think its probably like ' back to the future' or ' terminator'. Changing small things alters the timeline.

No it's not. There is no "going back to change things" in your scenario.

The Angels of Karma foresee the experiences an incarnation will provide any inserted spirit. Being able to change what has foreseen means the Angels of Karma cannot foresee the future. It's a contradiction.

The angels can see what difference they might be able to make by inspiring someone. So the future can be rewritten.

An Angel of Karma knows what a particular spirit needs to evolve further. It looks at the future of every single incarnation and what experiences it will provide and then selects a certain incarnation for the said spirit based on what it needs.

Like a school guidance counselor telling someone what classes they need to take in order to get a degree in mechanical engineering.

That being said, you want people to also believe that these Angels of Karma then go against what they initially determined as being necessary experiences for spiritual evolution and try steer them AWAY these certain experiences?

That's like the guidance counselor above setting up the course path to get the mechanical degree and then later telling the individual not to take certain classes that are necessary!

 

[Gamolon]

I said the angels do not 'directly' interfere in our lives. They can change what they foresee in subtle ways, like inspiring people by planting ideas in their minds.
But if the person does not take any notice of the ideas and continues to behave destructively, there is nothing the angels can do about it but watch.

Explain why the Angels of Karma steer people away from experiences that they themselves originally deemed necessary for that spirit to evolve?

 

[Gamolon]

decide what experiences we need for our soul to progress.

Above is what you said about the Angels of Karma and their purpose.

So now you're telling us that they go against their own initial judgement of what is needed for a soul to progress and steer people away from certain experiences?

Please explain.