Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

[Matthew Ellard]

Hitler's (bad) karma must be insignificant compared with Muhammad's because he (Muhammad) started a religion based on evil lies about God, and the effects of that are still going to go on for untold centuries into the future.

And your crack about Islam is wrong and uncalled for.

If anything Scorpion's comment about Muhammad, indicates Scorpion doesn't believe any of the "pick & mix religion" he is posting support for. How can Muhammad be blamed for things people did in the future? Does Scorpion think that Jesus is to be blamed for the KKK using the words of Jesus?

I don't think scorpion can set down a coherent map of his claims at all. I think Scorpion just cherry picks any religious claim that suits his own beliefs, at that moment.

 

[Loss Leader]

God and the angels see the future as it will be, but seeing is not meddling.

But according to you they do meddle. They communicated through various mediums you've visited. Communication is meddling. Hamlet would have been pretty depressed one way or another, but the spirit of his father communicated that he was murdered. This set Hamlet off on a course he otherwise would not have taken.

You, for example, wouldn't be in this thread tying yourself in knots to explain your own view of God and angels if they hadn't communicated with humans. So, they've intervened in your life and made it different than it otherwise would have been.

We make mistakes because of our lack of evolution or ignorance, those mistakes cause consequences, and we have to account for them. It goes on and on over countless lives, until we are cleansed of all karma.

Then why is the human population increasing? Shouldn't it be decreasing? Assuming angels are just lobbing souls at the earth like fastballs, why are they timing their soul delivery so exactly with the human birthrate. They never miss a baby and have one born without a soul. They never accidentally give a soul to a plastic drinking straw.

Has anybody finished the journey since the beginning of the species? Has anybody ever been cleansed of all karma? If so, why is God taking out our best players? He could let them stick around and guide the way for others, or at least teach them not to text and drive.

Also, I'm pretty sure you're using the word Karma wrong.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Please excuse this digression, but...

There used to be a podcast called “Reasonable Doubts”. In essence, two reformed believers discussing atheism and problems/issues with religion. They had a segment - I forget the name - that each week featured some usually obscure religion.

I listened to one or two, then began skipping that segment. Why? I find nothing more boring than hearing about someone else’s faith system - my position is they’re all artificial constructs based on wishful thinking and “just so” stories. Why waste time hearing about the theology of the mud people of Borneo*? Sure, there may be some vague historical curiosity about what the Romans or Greeks or Inca or Aztecs believed, but if it’s all made up B.S. anyway, who cares?

I mention this because that’s all the weight I give Scorpion’s beliefs, such as they are. They’re arbitrary, not reason-based, internally contradictory, and hence uninteresting - to me, anyway.

And yet, it’s a thread I follow. I’m not sure why, and it may not continue, but for now I find the psychology of the believer peculiarly interesting, along with other member’s responses, which for the most part have been fairly respectful.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled programming!


*Made up, but you get my drift.

 

[Scorpion]

Then why is the human population increasing? Shouldn't it be decreasing? Assuming angels are just lobbing souls at the earth like fastballs, why are they timing their soul delivery so exactly with the human birthrate. They never miss a baby and have one born without a soul. They never accidentally give a soul to a plastic drinking straw.

Has anybody finished the journey since the beginning of the species? Has anybody ever been cleansed of all karma? If so, why is God taking out our best players? He could let them stick around and guide the way for others, or at least teach them not to text and drive.

The number of souls on earth is only a small amount of the spirits that exist, either incarnate on other planets, or in between lives in the spirit world.
A trance medium said there is a big queue of souls waiting to incarnate on this planet at the present time, because of the great advancements we are making.

Jesus and Buddha may be examples of enlightened souls who only came back to teach us. They had achieved enlightenment and had no need to get reborn other than as teachers. There is supposedly a group of enlightened souls in the spirit world who work with the angels of karma to help human evolution.

 

[JayUtah]

A trance medium said...

Fake news. Prove to me here and now that your "trance medium" is a legitimate authority and not one of the charlatans you say you can't tell from the real thing. You told me yesterday you didn't know or remember where you got some of this stuff. So now we have to try to distinguish between things you might have heard from an external source and things you simply make up on the fly.

Jesus and Buddha may be examples of enlightened souls who only came back to teach us.

No. Earlier you told us that the more enlightened a spirit gets, the less individual identity it has. That's because you're stealing bits from dharmic animism to fill in the gaps in your reincarnation claims. How predictable then that you identify the two great figures in the religions you're trying to mash together to make up your own.

There is supposedly a group of enlightened souls in the spirit world who work with the angels of karma to help human evolution.

But teaching is consummate meddling. You keep trying to tell us that the angels of karma can't actually affect human lives. But then the whole cult of your religion is for them to do precisely that. If that's the case, then it's the angels of karma who are responsible, not the spirits being manipulated.

 

[JayUtah]

I find nothing more boring than hearing about someone else’s faith system - my position is they’re all artificial constructs based on wishful thinking and “just so” stories.

My position too. But in my case I find it generally interesting to determine how people arrive at belief. Some of that is self-serving: I have lived all over the world, and I find it helpful to know what the prevailing religions in these areas have to say about things. It colors their approach to life and living. How can one live in Utah and not at least defensibly know something about Mormons and Mormonism? I don't propose to believe in the religions, but I can avoid unwanted offense and tension. Not really where you were going with that, I realize, but I just wanted to provide contrast.

Scorpion’s beliefs [are] arbitrary, not reason-based, internally contradictory, and hence uninteresting - to me, anyway.

I agree with the first part -- the allegations of fact. It's interesting to see religions that arise in the age of reason. It's easy to see what happens when fearful people attempt to explain the odd observations around them, and turn to superstition to do so. Addressing the second part, it amuses me to watch someone pretend to reason through the construction of a religion and so utterly fail at it. So the actual beliefs are not themselves interesting. As you and others have said, it's just a hodgepodge of crap that seems to be made up on the spot. That's what's interesting. Skeptics seem to have a fondness for the art of an argument. That's why it was skeptics who came up with the original Flat Earth claims. They wanted to see how far an obviously wrong argument could be made to go.

Sadly Scorpion's skill at argument is as poor as the objective validity of his claims. I guess it's the road accident that we all slow down to look at.

But for now I find the psychology of the believer peculiarly interesting, along with other member’s responses, which for the most part have been fairly respectful.

And this is because Scorpion is open about his mental illness. Those of us who have experience being around those who suffer the same illness can easily see some of the symptoms. On the other hand, Scorpion is equally honest about his reasons not to seek treatment for his illness. So we walk a fine line between sympathy for the cognitive consequences he's dealing with, but also holding him responsible for the choices he has made in dealing with it.

 

[JayUtah]

I think that is giving it too much credit, it's simply a hodge podge of things Scorpion thinks he has heard, the only filter being used is "what makes me feel good".

I don't think scorpion can set down a coherent map of his claims at all. I think Scorpion just cherry picks any religious claim that suits his own beliefs, at that moment.

You guys might be right after all. I think I see a pattern in what he chooses to address each new question. But I might be cherry-picking. To me he seems to vacillate between dharmic animism when he needs to talk about the cycle of life, karma, and so forth, and relatively ordinary Christianity when he needs to talk about individual responsibility and personalized afterlives. But really it's a bowl of spaghetti. It's all tossed together with a marinara of obvious charlatans that Scorpion alternately dismisses as frauds or cites as authoritative sources.

 

[Spektator]

You guys might be right after all. I think I see a pattern in what he chooses to address each new question. But I might be cherry-picking. To me he seems to vacillate between dharmic animism when he needs to talk about the cycle of life, karma, and so forth, and relatively ordinary Christianity when he needs to talk about individual responsibility and personalized afterlives. But really it's a bowl of spaghetti. It's all tossed together with a marinara of obvious charlatans that Scorpion alternately dismisses as frauds or cites as authoritative sources.

And the trance medium that once said whatever might support the notion du jour is the spicy meatball that no one can swallow. Mama mia!

 

[Humots]

I believe God created at least two separate species. Our human spirits, and the race of angels. The angels never incarnate and have little choice but to serve the will of God because his power is obvious to them.

So the angels have little (or no) choice but to obey God because of his power. Sounds like God threatens them into obeying, at least implicitly.

There may be some truth in the story of the fallen angel, but the spirit world teaches there is no supreme devil. It has been said that sometimes the angels envy us our struggles, because they are all they can be. But we are on the long road of self discovery and free choice. We cannot be made perfect by magic and need to experience life for ourselves. We are all sons of God and we will all have to realize the power within us for ourselves over many lives.

In my experience, when someone says something happened "by magic" they mean (mockingly) "by some unknown force."

God wouldn't be making us perfect "by magic." Omnipotent, remember?

As for not letting your daughter touch hot objects, you cannot always stop her making bad choices in life, and she has to learn for herself. Sooner or later you have to let go.

No, I cannot always stop her from making bad choices. But at some point she grows up and becomes the best person to make choices for herself.

At what point in her life do I "let go?" When she's five? Six? Twelve?

Of course not.

My point is that based on your claims, God does just that. He "lets us go" in the sense of abandoning us when we are still children. Your Angels of Karma do not tell us anything, they just arrange for learning or rewarding or punishing experiences to happen without context.

If a person lives a hard life because of something they did wrong in a past life, how do they know that? Because some medium tells them?

My wife and I suffered the loss of our first child. If we asked a medium, he/she might say:

"It's a punishment for something you (Me? My wife? Both of us?) did in a past life. You ask what it was? I have no idea, just something bad. Accept it."

or perhaps:

"It's a learning experience that will lead to great accomplishments in your next life. Only you won't remember it."

or perhaps:

"You will be compensated in your next life. Only you won't know it."

Not a very workable method.

 

[Axxman300]

Jesus and Buddha may be examples of enlightened souls who only came back to teach us. They had achieved enlightenment and had no need to get reborn other than as teachers. There is supposedly a group of enlightened souls in the spirit world who work with the angels of karma to help human evolution.

Sorry, you don't get to mix and match religious figures.

First, Jesus was a Jew and a Rabbi, and would have been against mediums (soothsayers) and in general was against people wasting their time with woo, and taught his followers to be kind, to share, and to help out when they could. Very much rooted in earthly concerns.

Plus there's the whole "Jesus will return" thing which is kind of the centerpiece of Christianity and its Easter holiday.

Buddha was very much about paying attention to "the now" and not fretting about the future nor the past, and generally getting you act together.

What about the wisest man of all, Murphy, who's laws truly unveil the secrets of existence? If ever there was a purveyor of truth it is the laws of Murphy.

 

[abaddon]

You guys might be right after all. I think I see a pattern in what he chooses to address each new question. But I might be cherry-picking. To me he seems to vacillate between dharmic animism when he needs to talk about the cycle of life, karma, and so forth, and relatively ordinary Christianity when he needs to talk about individual responsibility and personalized afterlives. But really it's a bowl of spaghetti. It's all tossed together with a marinara of obvious charlatans that Scorpion alternately dismisses as frauds or cites as authoritative sources.

I happen to have poked into this whole thing in the past. The actual model, given some foundational assumptions, is fairly self consistent, if rather grim. Charity and aiding anyone in need is out the window, were on to follow such. Naturally, I buy not a word of it.

Nevertheless, Scorpion appears to have heard some of it and promptly failed to work it through to it's natural conclusions. Chinese whispers style.

 

[Scorpion]

Sorry, you don't get to mix and match religious figures.

First, Jesus was a Jew and a Rabbi, and would have been against mediums (soothsayers) and in general was against people wasting their time with woo, and taught his followers to be kind, to share, and to help out when they could. Very much rooted in earthly concerns.

Plus there's the whole "Jesus will return" thing which is kind of the centerpiece of Christianity and its Easter holiday.

Buddha was very much about paying attention to "the now" and not fretting about the future nor the past, and generally getting you act together.

What about the wisest man of all, Murphy, who's laws truly unveil the secrets of existence? If ever there was a purveyor of truth it is the laws of Murphy.

I have heard a spirit guide mention Jesus and Buddha in the same breath, describing them as spiritual masters. But unsurprisingly I never even heard them mention Muhammad. He was obviously a false prophet. The kind that Jesus warned against.

 

[Pixel42]

I have heard a spirit guide mention Jesus and Buddha in the same breath, describing them as spiritual masters. But unsurprisingly I never even heard them mention Muhammad. He was obviously a false prophet. The kind that Jesus warned against.

Can you really not think of a more plausible reason why the mediums you visit would mention Jesus and Buddha but not Muhammad?

 

[Darat]

Can you really not think of a more plausible reason why the mediums you visit would mention Jesus and Buddha but not Muhammad?

Especially given the history of violence of both Christianity and Buddhism.

 

[abaddon]

I have heard a spirit guide mention Jesus and Buddha in the same breath, describing them as spiritual masters. But unsurprisingly I never even heard them mention Muhammad. He was obviously a false prophet. The kind that Jesus warned against.

Nope. To be exact, you have heard some dishonest "medium" dishonestly claiming to "channel" a "spirit guide" mention jesus and buddha in the same breath.

Or are you changing your claims to be that you had that direct communication yourself despite previous claims that you had no such communication ever (with the exception of lottery numbers)? If so, I am moved to wonder why "spirit guides" need to breathe, among other questions.

 

[Scorpion]

Especially given the history of violence of both Christianity and Buddhism.

Jesus and Buddha both taught non violence. But Muhammad did not.

 

[Scorpion]

Can you really not think of a more plausible reason why the mediums you visit would mention Jesus and Buddha but not Muhammad?

If God was the source of the Quran we are all in terrible trouble, because it makes him out to be a semi literate, sadistic monster. I have written a lot of criticism of the Quran on the following thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326115&page=38

 

[Scorpion]

Nope. To be exact, you have heard some dishonest "medium" dishonestly claiming to "channel" a "spirit guide" mention jesus and buddha in the same breath.

Or are you changing your claims to be that you had that direct communication yourself despite previous claims that you had no such communication ever (with the exception of lottery numbers)? If so, I am moved to wonder why "spirit guides" need to breathe, among other questions.

Yes, I do not know for sure if the medium was genuine.

I do not know if spirits breath, but I don't think so because I have read somewhere they can go underwater without drowning.

 

[Pixel42]

If God was the source of the Quran we are all in terrible trouble, because it makes him out to be a semi literate, sadistic monster. I have written a lot of criticism of the Quran on the following thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326115&page=38

This is not an answer to my question.

Once again: Can you really not think of a more plausible reason [than Muhammad "being a false prophet"] why the mediums you visit would mention Jesus and Buddha but not Muhammad?

 

[Scorpion]

This is not an answer to my question.

Once again: Can you really not think of a more plausible reason [than Muhammad "being a false prophet"] why the mediums you visit would mention Jesus and Buddha but not Muhammad?

No, I figure the spirit world know full well Muhammad was a lying bandit, who scared people into fighting for him for fear of Allah. They are hardly likely to mention him in the same way as Jesus and Buddha.