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Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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Not sure where you live, but I can assure it is an odd place.

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In the 70s and 80s about 6 months of the year in an old mining and mill town in the north west of England. Anyone falling outside a very narrow definition of masculinity could expect violence in pubs and so on. And that was common across all areas of the UK.
 
From strip clubs to clothing optional resorts, there are places where women routinely take off their clothes in the presence of men. In all those places, there are people employed with the specific task of preventing harassment in it's various forms. I wonder why that is. I also wonder how often a woman is evicted from such a place for a harassment related offense.
 
From strip clubs to clothing optional resorts, there are places where women routinely take off their clothes in the presence of men. In all those places, there are people employed with the specific task of preventing harassment in it's various forms. I wonder why that is. I also wonder how often a woman is evicted from such a place for a harassment related offense.


I managed a strip club for five years.

I was going to mention it, but that isn't a good comparison.

Guys are knowingly going into a sexually charged atmosphere, and so are the women. It's not the same as being on a beach. Girls are sticking their goods in guys faces, two inches from physical contact, gyrating etc.

So bad analogy there.
 
I managed a strip club for five years.

I was going to mention it, but that isn't a good comparison.

Guys are knowingly going into a sexually charged atmosphere, and so are the women. It's not the same as being on a beach. Girls are sticking their goods in guys faces, two inches from physical contact, gyrating etc.

So bad analogy there.
. But in all places where women get naked near men, there are issues. The exact nature of the issues varies. A pagan gathering among the skyclad celebrants is not like a nudist resort is not like a strip club. At all of them, they assume that there will be issues.
 
Good analogy.

Eta:. Deleted rest of post. Decided against going down well worn ground.

When someone says they care about toilets because of the objective safety of women and then in the next breath say they aren't interested in the objective safety of women and only want to discuss toilets then I am not going to take them seriously as discussing in good faith.

At least you have been honest enough to appear to admit that what you are worried about is the subjective comfort level of women (or parents even) around people with penises. I think this is at least an honest position, not one i agree with but at least its coherent.

Elsewhere we have an argument that nudity and sexual assault are linked. This indeed would be a coherent reason for why spaces where nudity is common such as changing rooms (though not toilets) should be segregated. And I am waiting to see if this argument can be supported with evidence.
 
From strip clubs to clothing optional resorts, there are places where women routinely take off their clothes in the presence of men. In all those places, there are people employed with the specific task of preventing harassment in it's various forms. I wonder why that is. I also wonder how often a woman is evicted from such a place for a harassment related offense.

A strip club is quite different to a changing room. Surely you would admit that?
There are equally people employed in nightclubs to do the same job and there nudity is not common. So I think you are drawing a false equivalence.

I'm not aware of there being any prevalence of sexual assault in clothing optional resorts (or even security employed to prevent it) is there any data on this you can share?
 
. But in all places where women get naked near men, there are issues. The exact nature of the issues varies. A pagan gathering among the skyclad celebrants is not like a nudist resort is not like a strip club. At all of them, they assume that there will be issues.

This is just an unsupported assertion. And anyway, the question is whether there is an INCREASED prevalence of sexual assault caused by nudity.
 
Well, my, admittedly limited, personal experience is that sooner or later there's a guy who is asked to leave, or a lot of the ladies decide that maybe they'll keep their clothes on after all.

In my personal experience if you wait long enough in any public place from a supermarket to a church to a macdonalds then sooner or later someone is going to cause trouble and be asked to leave.

The main driver of bad behaviour seems to be alcohol rather than nudity. Which would seem to be an argument for segregating premises which serve alcohol by sex rather than toilets.
 
By the way I wasn't seriously arguing for subway cars to be segregated just merely pointing out that if the concern is the safety of women then there are a host more things to look at than toilets and changing rooms.

I think your arguments on efficiency must also hold for toilets and changing rooms incidentally.

Sure, there are efficiency issues with segregating changing rooms, but they are different efficiency issues and it's not clear that the answer in respect to one will hold with respect to the other.
 
In my personal experience if you wait long enough in any public place from a supermarket to a church to a macdonalds then sooner or later someone is going to cause trouble and be asked to leave.

The main driver of bad behaviour seems to be alcohol rather than nudity. Which would seem to be an argument for segregating premises which serve alcohol by sex rather than toilets.

One problem with doing that would be that many of the people going to those places are doing so specifically to interact with people of the opposite sex. The same is not true of toilets* or changing rooms.

*Personally I'm very open to the idea of desegregating toilets.
 
When someone says they care about toilets because of the objective safety of women and then in the next breath say they aren't interested in the objective safety of women and only want to discuss toilets then I am not going to take them seriously as discussing in good faith.

That's because you're deliberately changing the other person's argument to make it sound ridiculous or incoherent, also known as a strawman. You either can't fathom that one context may operate under a certain set of rules or reasoning, and that another may operate under a different set, or you don't care.
 
You know you could just link to the information that supports what you are saying?

Like you linked to supporting information when you first made your claim?

Because I am much more likely to take the word of these 4 sources than yours.

Argument from authority. Nice. Because none of your links actually contain evidence.

But OK, here's some links. First, I'll match your Psychology Today link with another Psychology Today link:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...e-is-not-only-about-power-it-s-also-about-sex

Viewed dispassionately, the "rape is about power, not sex" claim appears problematic on its face. First, human behavior is multiply determined. Meaningful human events have more than one reason and are shaped by more than a single motive or force. Rape is a human event. It is motivated by more than one thing. Second, to claim that sex—one of our most powerful motives (our species’ existence depends on it, after all)—is somehow absent from an act that routinely involves erection, vaginal penetration, and ejaculation defies reason. Arguing that rape is not about sex is akin to asserting that gun violence is not about guns. Both claims betray an incomplete and politicized view.​

Or how about another one:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-human-beast/201104/is-rape-about-control-or-sex

The classic rejoinder to Brownmiller was by Don Symons in The Evolution of Human Sexuality. Symons reviewed forensic evidence showing that victims, as a class, were most likely to be young physically attractive women (as opposed to older, more successful career women). On the other hand, convicted rapists were disproportionately young disadvantaged men whose low social status made them undesirable as dating partners, or husbands.​

An interesting bit here is to contrast that with a quote from your third source:

Myth - Rape only happens to young attractive women

Fact

Women and girls of all ages, classes, culture, ability, sexuality, race and faith are raped. Attractiveness has no significance. Rape is an act of violence not sex.​

These seem to contradict each other. But in point of fact, the myth it seeks to debunk is a straw man to begin with. Yes, rape doesn't only happen to young attractive women. But it mostly happens to young women. Age is easy to quantify, attractiveness is not, so I don't think there are any reliable statistics on the attractiveness of rape victims. But given that age is very strongly correlated with sexual attractiveness, the claim that attractiveness has no significance is contradicted by the available evidence.

One last link, from a more academic perspective:
https://www.csus.edu/indiv/m/merlinos/thornhill.html

Consider the following facts:

  • Most rape victims are women of childbearing age.
  • In many cultures rape is treated as a crime against the victim's husband.
  • Rape victims suffer less emotional distress when they are subjected to more violence.
  • Rape takes place not only among human beings but also in a variety of other animal species.
  • Married women and women of childbearing age experience more psychological distress after a rape than do girls, single women or women who are past menopause.

As bizarre as some of those facts may seem, they all make sense when rape is viewed as a natural, biological phenomenon that is a product of the human evolutionary heritage.​

Note particularly that fourth point. Brownmiller says that animals don't rape. This is false. But she uses it as a central justification for her claim. It's necessary for her argument, because animals plainly have a strong evolutionary sexual motive. If animals that want sex never rape, then one can claim that this is because rape can't fulfill sexual desire, and thus human rape can't be about sex. But if animals do rape, then human rape isn't special, and may be motivated by the same thing: a desire for sex.

Brownmiller's claim is dogma, not wisdom. It has been widely adopted not because it provides any actual insight into rape, but only because it is politically useful. But it is completely wrong. And it's so obviously wrong that people need to be "educated" into believing it.
 
One problem with doing that would be that many of the people going to those places are doing so specifically to interact with people of the opposite sex. The same is not true of toilets* or changing rooms.


Wouldn't it be nice if we could actually be looking for solutions that deal with what people actually want? It seems like that ought to be a decent approach to take.

To be fair, different people want different, and incompatible, things. There's no way to satisfy everyone. If we gave everyone private changing rooms, that would satisfy everyone's wish for privacy, but some people also want economy. They are willing to give up a little bit of privacy in exchange for a lower cost.

I find myself being a bit judgmental about other people's desires, I will admit. If someone wants privacy, I'm very sympathetic. If someone wants economy, I'm pretty sympathetic. I look at places where there are men's rooms (changing, toilets, bedrooms, or whatever), women's rooms, and some additional place for people who, for one reason or another don't quite fit in either, and I say that's a nice compromise. Everyone gets some measure of privacy. The cost is not the absolutely cheapest it could be, but it's reasonable. I'm good with that.

Others, however, are not. Based on the history of the threads on this subject, I won't venture to say exactly what's wrong with it, or why people still object to it. I will just say I'm not very sympathetic to any rationale I've heard. It always seem to involve the idea that men can have babies, and that these baby-bearing men are real, honest,genuine, men, who just happen to be pregnant. I confess that I am not very sympathetic to any variation of any argument that involves pregnant men.
 
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Not off topic, but a bit off the current track, a trans type person has legally changed his birth certificate to female.

Of course this is just three more documents attached to the original ( now legally a reference ) but it makes him/her feel great.

Mex City is very easy to be diverse in, most anything you might want that isn't illegal is just one good lawyer and some greased palms in the right offices. Just have to make it worth thier time. Financially of course.
The deep christian undercurrent has little hold there unlike small city to rural Mexico.

I am not sure what really changed here other than some quite costly pieces of paper are now in the hands of Ana Thaila. And he/she is thrilled for it.
 
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Like you linked to supporting information when you first made your claim?



Argument from authority. Nice. Because none of your links actually contain evidence.

But OK, here's some links. First, I'll match your Psychology Today link with another Psychology Today link:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...e-is-not-only-about-power-it-s-also-about-sex

Viewed dispassionately, the "rape is about power, not sex" claim appears problematic on its face. First, human behavior is multiply determined. Meaningful human events have more than one reason and are shaped by more than a single motive or force. Rape is a human event. It is motivated by more than one thing. Second, to claim that sex—one of our most powerful motives (our species’ existence depends on it, after all)—is somehow absent from an act that routinely involves erection, vaginal penetration, and ejaculation defies reason. Arguing that rape is not about sex is akin to asserting that gun violence is not about guns. Both claims betray an incomplete and politicized view.​

Or how about another one:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-human-beast/201104/is-rape-about-control-or-sex

The classic rejoinder to Brownmiller was by Don Symons in The Evolution of Human Sexuality. Symons reviewed forensic evidence showing that victims, as a class, were most likely to be young physically attractive women (as opposed to older, more successful career women). On the other hand, convicted rapists were disproportionately young disadvantaged men whose low social status made them undesirable as dating partners, or husbands.​

An interesting bit here is to contrast that with a quote from your third source:

Myth - Rape only happens to young attractive women

Fact

Women and girls of all ages, classes, culture, ability, sexuality, race and faith are raped. Attractiveness has no significance. Rape is an act of violence not sex.​

These seem to contradict each other. But in point of fact, the myth it seeks to debunk is a straw man to begin with. Yes, rape doesn't only happen to young attractive women. But it mostly happens to young women. Age is easy to quantify, attractiveness is not, so I don't think there are any reliable statistics on the attractiveness of rape victims. But given that age is very strongly correlated with sexual attractiveness, the claim that attractiveness has no significance is contradicted by the available evidence.

One last link, from a more academic perspective:
https://www.csus.edu/indiv/m/merlinos/thornhill.html

Consider the following facts:

  • Most rape victims are women of childbearing age.
  • In many cultures rape is treated as a crime against the victim's husband.
  • Rape victims suffer less emotional distress when they are subjected to more violence.
  • Rape takes place not only among human beings but also in a variety of other animal species.
  • Married women and women of childbearing age experience more psychological distress after a rape than do girls, single women or women who are past menopause.

As bizarre as some of those facts may seem, they all make sense when rape is viewed as a natural, biological phenomenon that is a product of the human evolutionary heritage.​

Note particularly that fourth point. Brownmiller says that animals don't rape. This is false. But she uses it as a central justification for her claim. It's necessary for her argument, because animals plainly have a strong evolutionary sexual motive. If animals that want sex never rape, then one can claim that this is because rape can't fulfill sexual desire, and thus human rape can't be about sex. But if animals do rape, then human rape isn't special, and may be motivated by the same thing: a desire for sex.

Brownmiller's claim is dogma, not wisdom. It has been widely adopted not because it provides any actual insight into rape, but only because it is politically useful. But it is completely wrong. And it's so obviously wrong that people need to be "educated" into believing it.

ok, so we have competing views thats fine. dies any of this in your view support your claim that nudity leads to sexual assault?
 
ok, so we have competing views thats fine.

No, Archie, it’s not fine. My views are supported by science. Your views are dogma invented by a radical feminist to support a political agenda, with no supporting evidence and based on false beliefs about biological reality.

dies any of this in your view support your claim that nudity leads to sexual assault?

Yes. Sexual arousal makes sexual predators more likely to attack. How is that not obvious?
 
At least you have been honest enough to appear to admit that what you are worried about is the subjective comfort level of women (or parents even) around people with penises. I think this is at least an honest position, not one i agree with but at least its coherent.

Elsewhere we have an argument that nudity and sexual assault are linked. This indeed would be a coherent reason for why spaces where nudity is common such as changing rooms (though not toilets) should be segregated. And I am waiting to see if this argument can be supported with evidence.

Nudity must be taken in a cultural and contextual lens. By itself, it isn't an argument for anything. The argument is more about women being in vulnerable situations...and that can be anywhere as long as conditions are right. Women are VERY aware of this and each of us develops our own 'situational awareness' of danger depending on location and life experience. For me, it isn't some daily paranoia but becomes automatic, nearly subconscious...just a part of how I go about things to avoid being a target.

Do men do this too? Do you choose the most lit parking? Do you glance at the other side of your car and the inside before you get in? Do you hold your largest key out as you walk? Do you sometimes act like you forgot something and circle back to a store/restaurant/etc if you feel someone may be following you? Do you sometimes get a 'danger' vibe so that you dial 911 on your phone and keep your thumb ready to dial, just in case?

Story time:
2 nights ago,about 9:30, I went out to spin a pokestop for my daughter (she is at dad's and didnt want to lose her streak!!). I decided to drive to the nearest one by a restaurant. Entering the parking I stopped where I knew gps would reach the pokestop. The restaurant closed at 9pm and there are only 2 cars in the lot. A hispanic man, maybe late 40's, in jeans and a red hoodie steps out of the shadows of the restaurant awning, looking annoyed, and starts walking toward me. I think, oh, maybe he works there and my lights are shining in that window...so I put the car in drive and move to the other side of the building, out of view of both him and the restaurant but still in pokestop range. Look up and he is behind me riding a bike towards the street, not really towards me. Still ok, but I am now uncomfortable so I move again another 100ft to the exit driveway, turn off the phone's screen and place it in the cupholder. Look up again and his face is right there at my window.

He says "No no, It's ok, It's ok."
Before he even finishes saying that, I check my lights front and back (back ones in the reflection of a window). Why? Well, my responses are so lightning fast that there is no time to ponder, but I'd guess it's in the off chance he is trying to warn me about something wrong with my car and I don't want to seem like some overreacting racist white girl.

Anyway, lights are fine and I drive off. He is still following me as I turn a corner and go home...faster than normal!!!

This minor stuff happens to me ALL THE TIME. More so in the last 10 years. I could write stories for days and days.

Now if the response is that I shouldn't be concerned because I'm in a big locked SUV and this guy is on a measly bike, then you just don't 'get it'. I'm also not going to lock myself in the house after dusk. I have developed my awareness and it serves me well so far. I would never get into a subway car with a single creepy man, or stay in one if he became the only one left. I don't have that option in other, more vulnerable, spaces.

And if an adult male body 'feels' entitled to enter a space designated only for women it gets a similar automatic 'danger' response, no matter what 'low odds' are given. They are all low odds.

Tell me I should feel perfectly at ease and perhaps I'll tell you the story of the high-level executive man I was friends with until he boasted about his secret life "as a girl" and I got to experience his alter ego first hand.

Can you relate Archie?
 
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No, Archie, it’s not fine. My views are supported by science. Your views are dogma invented by a radical feminist to support a political agenda, with no supporting evidence and based on false beliefs about biological reality.



Yes. Sexual arousal makes sexual predators more likely to attack. How is that not obvious?

The denial of reality is incredible sometimes.

Out of curiosity, I actually did some research. Were there incidents at nude gatherings? What actually happened. I didn't really need to do the research to confirm that things did, in fact, happen. I've been there, done that, enough to know, even if it weren't obvious. I was really just curious what was said about things.

What I found were things like this:

https://www.oyster.com/articles/tips-for-visiting-clothing-optional-resorts/


Fortunately, resorts generally make guests sign a waiver upon check-in that stresses “No means no.” So, regardless if you’re doing the asking or are being asked about engaging in sexual behavior, remember that no means no.


I've been to a lot of hotels in my time. Conventions. Conferences. Gatherings. Vacations. I'm not what you would call a serious traveler, but I got an occasional free hotel stay or flight from my frequent flier miles.

I never had to sign a waiver. I never had to read a policy on sexual harassment. The subject just never came up.

What do you suppose it is about these places that makes it necessary to have those policies. They're everywhere. I saw policies, and procedures, and how to report things. They tell you all the things that you aren't supposed to do. They tell you who to call if someone does them to you. Why would they need to tell people that?

I know, I know. "Unsupported assertion" or something.

ETA: I want to emphasize something. I'm not a prude, and clothing optional gatherings are pretty safe. This isn't some sort of scare tactic to say that you all ought to be sure to keep your clothes on at all times. What I am saying, though, is that the people who host clothing optional events know that part of the territory is going to be trying to spot the bad apples to prevent a serious incident, because there will be bad apples. It isn't a question of if. It's just how many. People, especially women, generally feel safe in these environments, but the reason they feel safe is they know there's a group of people looking out for troublemakers.
 
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