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Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

Yes, and you can be a complete bastard, because you know it is your destiny to educate those poor souls that you choose as victims. and in any case, you can't help it, because the Angels of Karma chose you because they knew your destiny.

"Don't give to charity, you're stealing the soul's opportunity to learn from their experience. And those terrible, terrible doctors, don't they know that the soul was meant to learn and grow from choking on their own blood as TB ravages their lungs?"
 
This post right here, the content is the exact kind of thing that drove me to rethink the things I believed and forced me to be a skeptic. The reasoning has no credible center.

"Accept your lot it will all be okay in the next life/lives" always struck me as transparently self serving.

I strongly agree. There are so many moral pitfalls in the "long view" argument that I really don't know where to begin. Or to end, so that this remains concise enough to read.

Most importantly, Scorpion's homemade religion seems to borrow incompatible tidbits from various movements and traditions without any interest in reconciling them. Scorpion alluded to dharmic traditions in the post Axxman300 answered. Dharmic animism is entirely incompatible with spiritualism that offers spirit guides, mediums, and necromancy. This is why the doctrines Scorpion comes up with flip-flop between incompatible positions. In the dharmic traditions, the essence of life is not individualized. The enlightenment achieved by repeated incarnation is to merge with the Brahman. And since the Brahman is undifferentiated goo, that's where the notion comes from that one's individualism becomes less relevant as it goes. In fact, the animism in dharmic faiths does not involve individualized spirits. That's how the spirits of past tulkus can be split and reincarnated in multiple successors.

In contrast, all the meidumship claims require highly individualized spirits. Grief predation presumes the spirit of the departed is still the same person she was in life. The appeal of the medium is the story that grandma is in a happier place, free from pain, and thinking fondly of the people she left behind. No one wants to hear that grandma got poured into a homogeneous vat of spirit-goo. Or that she got broken up to incarnate both a trust-fund baby in Malibu and the unwanted child of a prostitute in South Africa. And the spirit-guide claims don't work unless the guide is a character with a compelling backstory -- an Indian shaman or a little Victorian girl. Mediumship simply doesn't work with the dharmic animism model, and no amount of desperate theorizing about karmic daemons patches the plot holes.

A hybrid between dharmic reincarnation and Abrahamically individualized souls raises the issue of individualized justice. Now you have this ongoing cycle of life that simply isn't going to turn out well for everyone for reasons that have nothing to do with their wishes, abilities, or actions. Yet, the dharma initiative (sorry) demands progression. Hence some platonic deity that keeps order and ensures justice. It has to be a fair system, because how else can it be morally superior to atheism? Even worse, when the unfolding of events makes us rightly question the wisdom and justice of the deity, the claimants just redefine justice. The deity is so much more profoundly wise than we that we just can't see how tragedy and horror are really somehow good justice. Or, as we've seen, we just defer all the moral questions.

Those who advocate the "longer" view fancy themselves to be deep, enlightened thinkers because they embrace more than what is immediately visible. Oh, the silly atheists and their limited, closed-minded ways of thinking! But as the examples posted by others show, all this does is defer moral responsibility to a later time and place it upon another party. And it creates problems for the present life. Is the person you see suffering working off karma? Or is she suffering needlessly now, to be recompensed later? Moral rectitude in this system is defined not by the effects of conduct upon others, but some simplistic dicta of inherent worth. To correct the obvious moral hazard, the deity is shorn of his prior omnipotence. But this just flips it back to the dharmic model, which doesn't care about redress for individuals.

No, atheism doesn't pretend that the universe is fair. It doesn't even promise that it can be made fair. What atheism tells us is that the only justice we will enjoy is what we make. And the process of making it is how we progress, both as individuals and as a species. it isn't by blindly following circus sideshows or bored housewives who pretend they can talk to dead shamans. If we understand that war is horrible in the short term, only then are we properly motivated to to avoid it in the short term. It is precisely because we cannot do anything to remit the tragedy of a child murder victim that we must take judicious steps to prevent it.
 
Thank you Sr Utah. Now it all kind of falls into some context.

Discombobulated and a bit twisted is just a start.
 
What atheism tells us is that the only justice we will enjoy is what we make.

This is so true and one of the most important concepts we can internalise, it's the heart of the Golden Rule and should inform our interactions as individuals and societies, yet at the same time I can't help but hear it in my head sounding like "Movie Voice Over Guy"

Sorry, I'm drinking and posting
 
The absolute worst part of karma is the idea that whatever misfortunes befall you now are your fault and you deserve them because you were bad in a previous life.

That kid who died of cancer? He deserved that because a previous him was a murderer.
 
The angels of karma determine what we deserve and send us into lives where we reap what we have sowed..

So if you were born soon after after Hitler died in 1945 and punished by the angels of karma, with schizophrenia, that all makes sense to you?
 

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The absolute worst part of karma is the idea that whatever misfortunes befall you now are your fault and you deserve them because you were bad in a previous life.

That kid who died of cancer? He deserved that because a previous him was a murderer.

Imagine this.

According to Scorpion, the spirit does not know what it did in it's past life and has no clue what it's getting into when it goes into it's next incarnation.

Only the Angels of Karma know.

Spirits are just inhabiting the spirit world knowing only that they have to incarnate according to the whims of the Angels of Karma. There is no knowledge of how far along they are in their evolution.

They are at the mercy of the Angels of Karma and what they decide for them in every aspect.
 
Imagine this.

According to Scorpion, the spirit does not know what it did in it's past life and has no clue what it's getting into when it goes into it's next incarnation.

Only the Angels of Karma know.

Spirits are just inhabiting the spirit world knowing only that they have to incarnate according to the whims of the Angels of Karma. There is no knowledge of how far along they are in their evolution.

They are at the mercy of the Angels of Karma and what they decide for them in every aspect.

Yes !

Except I said the spirit does not know what it did in ' previous' incarnations, not the last one. We remember our last lifetime, but we cannot access previous lives. The memory of all those lives is stored in the soul body in perfect detail. But we will not remember them until the end of our cycle of rebirths.
 
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So if you were born soon after after Hitler died in 1945 and punished by the angels of karma, with schizophrenia, that all makes sense to you?

The spiritualist medium Ursula Roberts said in a trance lecture that every action, and every reaction to it must be accounted for before a soul can be free of rebirths. So I could weep for Hitler, because he has a very long struggle ahead of him which will last for many incarnations. But even Hitler's karma must be insignificant compared with Muhammad's because he started a religion based on evil lies about God, and the effects of that are still going to go on for untold centuries into the future. It is hard to see how Muhammad will ever be able to account for all the wars his lies have started.

Karma is not an easy ride.

Not for nothing did Buddha say, "live harmlessly, and kill nothing"
 
Imagine this.

According to Scorpion, the spirit does not know what it did in it's past life and has no clue what it's getting into when it goes into it's next incarnation.

Only the Angels of Karma know.

Spirits are just inhabiting the spirit world knowing only that they have to incarnate according to the whims of the Angels of Karma. There is no knowledge of how far along they are in their evolution.

They are at the mercy of the Angels of Karma and what they decide for them in every aspect.

How is that free will if the Angels of Karma decide everything for us? Including being put into incarnations that will force us to to cause or receive terrible experiences? We have no choice in the matter because the Angels of Karma picked it for us because they deemed it necessary for us to go through that in order to evolve!
 
So I could weep for Hitler, because he has a very long struggle ahead of him which will last for many incarnations.

Because the Angles of Karma picked the "Hitler" incarnation for that particular spirit knowing full well what he would do. They picked it, according to you, because the incarnation contained experiences that they deemed necessary to experience because of past "karmic debts".
 
Gamolon said , "How is that free will if the Angels of Karma decide everything for us? Including being put into incarnations that will force us to to cause or receive terrible experiences? We have no choice in the matter because the Angels of Karma picked it for us because they deemed it necessary for us to go through that in order to evolve! "

Most people are not believers in angels of karma, so their actions are of their own free will. They do not think they are accountable, so have freedom to act as they see fit. I assume the angels of karma can see everything, and weigh up the balance of things over untold ages, so they do not make mistakes.
 
Because the Angles of Karma picked the "Hitler" incarnation for that particular spirit knowing full well what he would do. They picked it, according to you, because the incarnation contained experiences that they deemed necessary to experience because of past "karmic debts".


According to the spirit guides I have heard, the journey of the soul is a long road, it goes on for countless lives on many different planets. Hitler narrowly escaped death in the first world war, and that made him believe he had a destiny. Churchill too believed he was fulfilling his destiny. Maybe they were both right.

We are played off against each other, and in that way our souls are forced to grow.
 
And these angels not only lined up Hitler's soul, they also lined up a load of souls that needed a body which needed to be gassed, some of them children, or shot in the back of the head, or worked to death.

Thank you, angels
 
And these angels not only lined up Hitler's soul, they also lined up a load of souls that needed a body which needed to be gassed, some of them children, or shot in the back of the head, or worked to death.

Thank you, angels

The angels may send us into circumstances they know will be harsh, but the actions of cruelty are caused by the ignorance and inhumanity of humans.

At the present time the human race may consist of people that have reincarnated many, many times, and the last two wars may have been the working out of past karma from many cruel tribal wars of the past. So a tribe, or a nation may have collective karma as well as individual karma. People who are not guilty of anything, and are caught up in the wars, will be compensated in future incarnations.
 
JayUtah;128820380. At least a special qualification said:
I want to thank Scorpion for being open and honest about how he believes. Being right or wrong is sort of secondary and depending on the audience.
Logically it doesn't work but no religion passes that test.

It gives us an insight into what it takes to get to that belief. Something most faithful never give as it opens thier sacred to be seen by dirty heathens, or worse, atheists.

It takes a bit of brass in the shorts to stay on, holding the lines when the facts or general consensus go against one.
Always respect for just that, whether or not I agree with other ideas.
 
The angels may send us into circumstances they know will be harsh, but the actions of cruelty are caused by the ignorance and inhumanity of humans.

At the present time the human race may consist of people that have reincarnated many, many times, and the last two wars may have been the working out of past karma from many cruel tribal wars of the past. So a tribe, or a nation may have collective karma as well as individual karma. People who are not guilty of anything, and are caught up in the wars, will be compensated in future incarnations.

Or

The human race may consist of people who never have, and never will, be reincarnated.

You used the word "may" 4 times in that post. Do you have anything more certain that guesswork?
 
Or

The human race may consist of people who never have, and never will, be reincarnated.

You used the word "may" 4 times in that post. Do you have anything more certain that guesswork?

All I have is the teachings of trance mediums I listened to in the 1970's. I cannot know if what they said is true, but I believe most of it probably is.
 
All I have is the teachings of trance mediums I listened to in the 1970's. I cannot know if what they said is true, but I believe most of it probably is.

Did those trance mediums teach you that the things you are bringing here "may" be true, or that they are true?

If they said these things "may" then there is no reason to believe them as they were obviously unsure. The word is ambiguous.

If they said these things are true then why would you change what they said?
 
The angels may send us into circumstances they know will be harsh, but the actions of cruelty are caused by the ignorance and inhumanity of humans.

That gives you an enormous philosophical problem. Do you think the Holocaust happened because it was a good thing in the long run?
 

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