Grace Millane murder - do we believe the accused?

"Petechiae will not develop when there is enough force to obstruct carotid artery flow."
Just happened to find this earlier and lost the link when taking notes, no doubt will find again when I narrow down the search. Petechiae does form by manual strangling. I don't think either forensic pathologist was able to determine there had been manual strangling but were asked the maximum time and so there began the mantra. 1/3 rd of all strangling victims have a fractured hyoid bone, also pathologists look for cartilage fracture - apparently Grace had neither.

If there was evidence of strangling I'd more likely be out of here because of the behavior later. I think it's fair to say both are needed - but the strangling foremost - not neck pressure.

Jeez, here we have trained and experienced pathologists testifying that Grace was choked to death over an extended period of time, against one or two amateur sleuths with access to google who thinks it could have been an accident. Who to choose.......:rolleyes:
 
Jeez, here we have trained and experienced pathologists testifying that Grace was choked to death over an extended period of time, against one or two amateur sleuths with access to google who thinks it could have been an accident. Who to choose.......:rolleyes:
But...
Could you suggest a motive for a man successfully doing serial tinder dates, a lifestyle at 27 admittedly somewhat under siege due to financial constraints, but operating with some predictability suddenly considering murdering a young woman as part and parcel of the lifestyle?

I will concede body of work to Rolfe, she is an anchor of rationality, but that is not a reason to find murder.
New Zealand is predictable, dumb, and totally lacking in a rational discourse on this tragedy.
 
I would add that the call is now seriously in New Zealand that the sexual history of the victim should be inadmissible.
A law change.
Well, evidence presented in court was that the victim had engaged in erotic asphyxiation practice where there was a protocol that she would tap three times to be released.
This law change would make Xi Peng look a moderate.
 
But...
Could you suggest a motive for a man successfully doing serial tinder dates, a lifestyle at 27 admittedly somewhat under siege due to financial constraints, but operating with some predictability suddenly considering murdering a young woman as part and parcel of the lifestyle?

I will concede body of work to Rolfe, she is an anchor of rationality, but that is not a reason to find murder.
New Zealand is predictable, dumb, and totally lacking in a rational discourse on this tragedy.



Once again.... motive is only peripherally important to a finding of guilt, and it's entirely unnecessary to even propose a motive in order to find for guilt.

This man was convicted of murder because the totality of the evidence convinced the court (and me and others in this thread) that he must have a) choked Millane for a considerable period of time after she fell unconscious; b) therefore intended to either seriously injure or kill Millane; and c) been the one who was responsible for Millane's death. And his actions in the immediate aftermath of her death and over the ensuing 24-36 hours simply are not compatible with a man who "panicked" and was worried that he'd "unfairly take the blame". Taken together, that adds up to a conviction for murder.
 
But all of this is completely irrelevant to what you're actually trying to support: that there's such a thing as instantaneous death from carotid sinus stimulation.

We're not talking about a temporary loss of consciousness here. We're talking about instantaneous death. And the paper you're citing has nothing to say about that.

Surprised this has never happened in an MMA fight when a chokehold is applied...
 
It is an interesting point. I don't know what sort of grip is involved in these chokeholds though.
 
Er, ultimately we all die from heart cessation.

Ultimately we all die from brain cessation. Sometimes this is caused by lack of oxygenated blood due to heart cessation. Sometimes it is caused by lack of oxygenated blood due to lung cessation. Sometimes brain cessation is caused directly at the brain, bypassing all the other organs.
 
Jeez, here we have trained and experienced pathologists testifying that Grace was choked to death over an extended period of time, against one or two amateur sleuths with access to google who thinks it could have been an accident. Who to choose.......:rolleyes:

Show the evidence from the pathologists. You're making it up.
 
It is an interesting point. I don't know what sort of grip is involved in these chokeholds though.


We've already had details giving reasons why choke holds were outlawed by police - instant death.
 
I'll put the link up for this shortly, again it's something that couldn't happen according to some posters - death or instant death from carotid pressure (the reason why police abandoned choker holds.) It's recognized as having the potential of being fatal in karate from a single hold to the neck and is the reason mat fighters 'tap out'.) When considering terms like 'recovery' and so on it should be borne in mind that that at trial it was said 'recovery breathing' between applications of 'pressing' on the neck was shallow.



o Today
Foreign Accent Syndrome →
Q and A: How Long Does It Take For Someone To Die From Carotid Artery Compression?
09
Jul
Q: How long does it take for someone to die if their carotid artery is compressed?
A: The two carotid arteries lie in the front of the neck on either side of the trachea (windpipe) and carry blood from the heart to the brain. They supply 90% or so of the brain’s blood, with the rest coming from the two small vertebral arteries that travel along the spine and over the back-most portion of the brain. The carotids are interconnected in the brain so that in a normal individual compressing a single carotid artery will have little effect. Compressing both can cause a loss of consciousness in 15 to 20 seconds and death in 2 to 4 minutes.
One general rule in medicine is that if the heart stops, the victim will lose consciousness in about 4 seconds if standing, 8 if sitting, and 12 if lying down. This simply reflects the effects of gravity on blood flow. These numbers would also mostly hold true if both carotids were suddenly pressed shut—not easy to do—see below. But, to the brain, the complete interruption of blood flow through carotids would look the same as it would if the heart had stopped. Either way, the brain would receive no blood supply, and the brain needs a continuous supply of blood to function and survive.
Another medical truism is that dizziness, loss of consciousness, and sudden death are simply gradations along the same scale. That is, what makes you dizzy can make you lose consciousness, and what makes you lose consciousness can cause death. One of the things that can do this is compression of the carotid arteries. Brief compression, can cause dizziness, longer compression can cause loss of consciousness, and even a longer period of compression can cause death.
A major variable in play here is how severely the arteries are compressed. If only partially collapsed, the victim might have no problems. Severe and almost complete compression can cause loss of consciousness and death in short order. And anywhere in between. Significant and potentially deadly compression can result from strangulation–either manual or ligature–hanging, or an aggressively applied choke hold.
So, depending upon the nature, force, and duration of the compression, your victim could have no symptoms, become dizzy, lose consciousness, or die. Or could progressively move from one of these to the next. The time required for death could be a couple of minutes or many minutes if the compression is less severe or intermittent. As the victim struggled, he could intermittently release the strangle or choke hold and this would prolong the ordeal.
All these variable means that you can have it almost anyway you want. The killer could overpower the victim, render him unconscious in 20 seconds, and kill him in 2 minutes. Or the struggle could go on for many, many minutes. It’s up to you.
 
I'll put the link up for this shortly, again it's something that couldn't happen according to some posters - death or instant death from carotid pressure (the reason why police abandoned choker holds.) It's recognized as having the potential of being fatal in karate from a single hold to the neck and is the reason mat fighters 'tap out'.) When considering terms like 'recovery' and so on it should be borne in mind that that at trial it was said 'recovery breathing' between applications of 'pressing' on the neck was shallow.



o Today
Foreign Accent Syndrome →
Q and A: How Long Does It Take For Someone To Die From Carotid Artery Compression?
09
Jul
Q: How long does it take for someone to die if their carotid artery is compressed?
A: The two carotid arteries lie in the front of the neck on either side of the trachea (windpipe) and carry blood from the heart to the brain. They supply 90% or so of the brain’s blood, with the rest coming from the two small vertebral arteries that travel along the spine and over the back-most portion of the brain. The carotids are interconnected in the brain so that in a normal individual compressing a single carotid artery will have little effect. Compressing both can cause a loss of consciousness in 15 to 20 seconds and death in 2 to 4 minutes.
One general rule in medicine is that if the heart stops, the victim will lose consciousness in about 4 seconds if standing, 8 if sitting, and 12 if lying down. This simply reflects the effects of gravity on blood flow. These numbers would also mostly hold true if both carotids were suddenly pressed shut—not easy to do—see below. But, to the brain, the complete interruption of blood flow through carotids would look the same as it would if the heart had stopped. Either way, the brain would receive no blood supply, and the brain needs a continuous supply of blood to function and survive.
Another medical truism is that dizziness, loss of consciousness, and sudden death are simply gradations along the same scale. That is, what makes you dizzy can make you lose consciousness, and what makes you lose consciousness can cause death. One of the things that can do this is compression of the carotid arteries. Brief compression, can cause dizziness, longer compression can cause loss of consciousness, and even a longer period of compression can cause death.
A major variable in play here is how severely the arteries are compressed. If only partially collapsed, the victim might have no problems. Severe and almost complete compression can cause loss of consciousness and death in short order. And anywhere in between. Significant and potentially deadly compression can result from strangulation–either manual or ligature–hanging, or an aggressively applied choke hold.
So, depending upon the nature, force, and duration of the compression, your victim could have no symptoms, become dizzy, lose consciousness, or die. Or could progressively move from one of these to the next. The time required for death could be a couple of minutes or many minutes if the compression is less severe or intermittent. As the victim struggled, he could intermittently release the strangle or choke hold and this would prolong the ordeal.
All these variable means that you can have it almost anyway you want. The killer could overpower the victim, render him unconscious in 20 seconds, and kill him in 2 minutes. Or the struggle could go on for many, many minutes. It’s up to you.

And this helps the murderer how? It seems to be saying he could have been strangling her for as little as 2 minutes. 2 minutes seems plenty long enough for a competent jury to decide he intended to serious harm to her.
 
Ultimately we all die from brain cessation. Sometimes this is caused by lack of oxygenated blood due to heart cessation. Sometimes it is caused by lack of oxygenated blood due to lung cessation. Sometimes brain cessation is caused directly at the brain, bypassing all the other organs.

Be that as it may, medics will announce one's death as soon as there is no pulse (flatlined).

You can be brain dead yet can live a long time hooked up to a machine. Your death certificate will be based on when your heart seizes up.
 
So all these people whose heartbeat flatlined and they were then resuscitated are legally dead then? Along with all these people whose hearts were stopped so the open-heart surgery could be performed?
 
And this helps the murderer how? It seems to be saying he could have been strangling her for as little as 2 minutes. 2 minutes seems plenty long enough for a competent jury to decide he intended to serious harm to her.


The stuff Fixit quoted is about partial or complete compression of the carotid artery, not about the carotid sinus effect.
 
And this helps the murderer how? It seems to be saying he could have been strangling her for as little as 2 minutes. 2 minutes seems plenty long enough for a competent jury to decide he intended to serious harm to her.



I'm finding it really strange how Fixit keeps posting new links claiming it proves his point, when it actually (if anything) does the complete opposite.

I hesitate to repeat wearily: there is simply no reliable medical evidence showing that instantaneous (or even near-instantaneous) death from carotid sinus stimulation can even occur.


(Oh and once again, that post of Fixit's shows him/her to be freely mixing-and-matching "death from carotid artery compression" and "death from carotid sinus stimulation". By this point, I actually don't think he understands the difference between the two)


ETA: And in another "you couldn't make it up" moment.... I've just realised that the passage quoted by Fixit was from a blog aimed at crime fiction writers!! The words "clutching at straws to try to shore up a position" comes strangely to mind
 
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Be that as it may, medics will announce one's death as soon as there is no pulse (flatlined).



Uhhh no they don't.



You can be brain dead yet can live a long time hooked up to a machine.


No, no you can't. If you're brain dead (or, strictly speaking, dead at the brain stem), you're dead. You cannot live whatsoever, whether "hooked up to a machine" or not.



Your death certificate will be based on when your heart seizes up.


Totally incorrect. Your death certificae will be based on when you are adjudged to have experienced brain stem death.

(You're really not aware of the fact that in most cardiac arrests, the heart stops beating (the clue is in the name "cardiac arrest"), yet cardiac massage and artificial operation of airways will often cause a resumption of heartbeat? Or, as you might put it, "bring the patient back to life"..........)
 

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