MORE Act. Legal Weed?

[plague311]

Being "frustrated" by others is a regular experience for me. But I also know that we may not be the "Captain of our own ship". That free will may be an illusion and all of us are simply the product of forces that we do not control. Is being "frustrated" a judgment or a reaction? It's certainly not the result of contemplation.

I don't know what this word salad is designed to mean, or why you're saying it here.

Let me clear this up, you specifically named a group of people (drug users) and labeled them, specifically, as frustrating. That is a judgement on a group of people.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

They wouldn't "lose asset forfeiture.

Could you provide some evidence for this? Your unevidenced explanation simply doesn't make sense.

 

[plague311]

Could you provide some evidence for this? Your unevidenced explanation simply doesn't make sense.

They would still acquire assets with regards to marijuana just like they can acquire your assets if you're drinking and driving. I believe that's what is being said.

Just because weed would be legal doesn't mean there are absolutely no situations where it can be used illegally. For instance, drinking and driving.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

They would still acquire assets with regards to marijuana just like they can acquire your assets if you're drinking and driving. I believe that's what is being said.

Are you claiming that the illegal marijuana industry is going to continue at the same level as it exists now and that the legal industry only provides additional revenue? Or are you claiming the Feds will seize the legal industry too?

 

[BStrong]

ban it everywhere

Might as well pass a law outlawing bad weather.

 

[acbytesla]

I don't know what this word salad is designed to mean, or why you're saying it here.

Let me clear this up, you specifically named a group of people (drug users) and labeled them, specifically, as frustrating. That is a judgement on a group of people.

Labeling drug users as drug users is frustrating?

I can understand that.

 

[plague311]

Labeling drug users as drug users is frustrating?

I can understand that.

Uhm, no. You called out a group of people that you said you weren't going to judge and then judged them as frustrating. I didn't think my phrasing was confusing, I apologize.

 

[plague311]

Are you claiming that the illegal marijuana industry is going to continue at the same level as it exists now

Absolutely not. The regular market will be half priced compared to the black market. I didn't mean to give that impression.

Or are you claiming the Feds will seize the legal industry too?

I was just saying that seizure for legal weed will still happen in the way it happens for others things that are legal, but used illegally. Guns are seized, despite them being legal. Cars are seized from drunken drivers, despite cars being legal, etc. So seizures wouldn't go away entirely, just at a much lower rate. However, the feds would still make heaps of money through taxation.

 

[BStrong]

Are you claiming that the illegal marijuana industry is going to continue at the same level as it exists now and that the legal industry only provides additional revenue? Or are you claiming the Feds will seize the legal industry too?

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-11-04/illegal-marijuana-grows-seizures

By PATRICK MCGREEVYSTAFF WRITER

NOV. 4, 2019 12:42 PM

SACRAMENTO — Three years after Californians decided to legalize and license marijuana farms, state law enforcement raids this year seized nearly 1 million pot plants from illicit grows, a jump from last year highlighting that the black market remains a persistent problem.

The just-concluded growing season saw the state’s main enforcement program conduct 345 raids of illegal grow sites throughout California and the eradication of 953,459 marijuana plants, up from 254 raids last year that seized 614,267 pot plants, state Atty. Gen. Xavier Becerra said Monday.

Law enforcement agencies working together in the Campaign Against Marijuana Planting program arrested 148 people and seized 168 weapons during this year’s raids, up from 52 arrests and 100 firearms confiscated during last year’s growing season.

“Illegal cannabis grows are devastating our communities,” Becerra said. “Criminals who disregard life, poison our waters, damage our public lands, and weaponize the illegal cannabis black market will be brought to justice.”

Growing marijuana was legalized by Proposition 64, which was approved by California voters in 2016. State residents 21 years and older could immediately grow up to six plants for personal use, while larger farms were required to get a state license starting Jan. 1, 2018, pay taxes and license fees and track every plant harvested and sent to pot shops.

But illegal pot farms have continued operating — California is the largest supplier of marijuana to the rest of the country, yet it is illegal to sell cannabis outside the state from licensed California farms. A new study by the research group New Frontier Data estimates that California produces 58% of the cannabis grown in the United States.

Becerra said the black market persists in part because criminal growers can sell marijuana more cheaply than licensed growers because they don’t pay fees and taxes, or meet the costly environmental standards, that are required of licensed cultivators.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Absolutely not. The regular market will be half priced compared to the black market. I didn't mean to give that impression.

Actually, I realized you were helping to explain someone else's point and didn't necessarily share it yourself.

I was just saying that seizure for legal weed will still happen in the way it happens for others things that are legal, but used illegally. Guns are seized, despite them being legal. Cars are seized from drunken drivers, despite cars being legal, etc. So seizures wouldn't go away entirely, just at a much lower rate. However, the feds would still make heaps of money through taxation.

So between the two points you made, which I agree with, that legal pot will cost less than illegal pot and that it will lead to a lower rate of asset forfeiture, it is not automatically obvious that the increase taxes will make up for lost seizures. So we really can't assume the Feds are going to change their minds about legality any time soon based on increased revenue, which was the point at issue.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

@BStrong. You're citing a current example. In case you hadn't noticed, pot is still illegal in most of the country (your article points that out).

Let me give you a hint: To make your case, you have to show how much of current asset forfeiture is due to illegal pot. If that number is currently lower than what would be projected to come in from taxes on legal pot than you have made your case. If not, you may still be able to make your case by coming up with a reasonable reason why asset seizures related to pot will continue at some rate after pot is legal (and legal means everywhere). That second step could be accomplished by citing our experience with black market for highly taxed products like cigarettes and liquor.


Citing California right now is meaningless. It could be California has made itself more attractive to illegal pot farms because the presence of legal ones makes it easier to hide the illegal ones. Do you really think the illegal pot sector is going to grow due to legalization?

 

[mgidm86]

Absolutely not. The regular market will be half priced compared to the black market. I didn't mean to give that impression.



I was just saying that seizure for legal weed will still happen in the way it happens for others things that are legal, but used illegally. Guns are seized, despite them being legal. Cars are seized from drunken drivers, despite cars being legal, etc. So seizures wouldn't go away entirely, just at a much lower rate. However, the feds would still make heaps of money through taxation.

It isn't now. Street weed is way less than in stores here in Cali. I don't see why that would change. The state and city keep adding regulations to the dispensaries. It's amazing they are able to keep prices down as much as they have. I can get street weed for half of the dispensary or less if I want.

Last I checked 90% of all weed sales in the area are black market.

 

[plague311]

It isn't now. Street weed is way less than in stores here in Cali. I don't see why that would change.

Evidence? I actually posted evidence with my claim if you'd like to go back and read it.

The state and city keep adding regulations to the dispensaries.

Pretty standard as a new product and market for the product emerges. They're still adding regulations to over the counter vitamins and they've been out for decades.

It's amazing they are able to keep prices down as much as they have. I can get street weed for half of the dispensary or less if I want.

Last I checked 90% of all weed sales in the area are black market.

Where did you check? With whom? I live in North Dakota, an hour away from the Canada border, and I can tell you the prices aren't even close. It's half the street cost when you buy it in the store. I don't live in California though.

 

[BStrong]

@BStrong. You're citing a current example. In case you hadn't noticed, pot is still illegal in most of the country (your article points that out).



Let me give you a hint: To make your case, you have to show how much of current asset forfeiture is due to illegal pot. If that number is currently lower than what would be projected to come in from taxes on legal pot than you have made your case. If not, you may still be able to make your case by coming up with a reasonable reason why asset seizures related to pot will continue at some rate after pot is legal (and legal means everywhere). That second step could be accomplished by citing our experience with black market for highly taxed products like cigarettes and liquor.

I've cited evidence of the amount of sales/excise tax that is currently being paid on the growing/selling of legal marijuana.

I've repeatedly explained that legalized marijuana at the federal level does not preclude the feds from prosecuting/convicting and seizing the assets of individuals involved in marijuana trafficking that do not comply with whatever licensing and taxation scheme is mandated by a federal statute.

In my post above, as current as it can get, there are solid numbers on the number of individuals arrested, firearms and marijuana seized and number from the previous years after legalization.

If you can explain why you believe that marijuana legalization precludes enforcement and asset forfeiture against unlicensed operations I'd be glad to listen but it would be advantageous to see evidence that backs your opinion.

So far I'm the one with the links and numbers.

One edit deserves another -

https://www.nwnewsnetwork.org/post/illegal-marijuana-grows-continue-even-era-legalization

Marijuana may be legal in Washington and Oregon, but police continue to bust illegal marijuana operations that are not licensed by the state.

The latest numbers from the Washington State Patrol show that 89 illegal marijuana growing operations were shut down in Washington over the past year. Some were indoor grows, most were outdoor.

In total they seized 24,000 marijuana plants, more than 100 weapons and made more than 100 arrests. The total value of assets seized was nearly $2 million.

This represents a big jump from 2016 except in one category—the number of plants seized. That number is down significantly this year. The State Patrol said that’s because federal funding for marijuana eradication on public lands was cut. Usually those grows are identified by spotters up in an airplane or helicopter.

In recent months, U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions has expressed concern about black market marijuana operations in states like Washington and Oregon where regulated pot is legal. But so far, the Justice Department has not intervened.

 

[acbytesla]

@BStrong. You're citing a current example. In case you hadn't noticed, pot is still illegal in most of the country (your article points that out).

Let me give you a hint: To make your case, you have to show how much of current asset forfeiture is due to illegal pot. If that number is currently lower than what would be projected to come in from taxes on legal pot than you have made your case. If not, you may still be able to make your case by coming up with a reasonable reason why asset seizures related to pot will continue at some rate after pot is legal (and legal means everywhere). That second step could be accomplished by citing our experience with black market for highly taxed products like cigarettes and liquor.


Citing California right now is meaningless. It could be California has made itself more attractive to illegal pot farms because the presence of legal ones makes it easier to hide the illegal ones. Do you really think the illegal pot sector is going to grow due to legalization?

This!

I've been thinking about this for a while. I frequently drive by "hemp" farms in Oregon. They look exactly like regular Cannabis plants. What's to stop a farmer from mixing in some actual high THC cannabis?

 

[BStrong]

Interested parties may want to read this

https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6115&context=open_access_etds

Effects of Regulation Intensity on Marijuana Black Market After
Legalization

Abstract

Since 2012, many states and Canada have legalized the use and sale of recreational marijuana.

One of the expected benefits of the legalization is that the establishment of a legal cannabis market would eliminate the black market which has been the main form of marijuana trade for decades. Even though legal options are available for marijuana producers and consumers, the black market is still thriving in states where recreational marijuana has been legalized.

The reasons behind the persistence of the marijuana black market are complex. One of the main arguments is that the legalized states have failed to establish a regulatory framework which effectively keeps both producers and consumers in the legal market. Instead, strict regulations and high cost of compliance have created an environment in favor of big players while driving small-scale businesses into the black market and a quasi-experimental time series analysis of National Incident-Based Reporting System (NIBRS) data regarding marijuana offenses in Colorado and Washington between 2014 and 2017.

The qualitative analysis of news reports reveals that regulation is one of the main reasons that people stay in the illicit market. The comparison of marijuana crime trends in Colorado and Washington shows mixed findings. While marijuana offense rates in Colorado largely remained steady over the years, those in Washington increased.

It seems to me that even if the feds legalized marijuana and collected taxes on the growth and sale there would still be plenty of opportunities for state and federal AF.

 

[Babbylonian]

This!

I've been thinking about this for a while. I frequently drive by "hemp" farms in Oregon. They look exactly like regular Cannabis plants. What's to stop a farmer from mixing in some actual high THC cannabis?

Nothing except reality. Washington and Oregon have so much legal marijuana that they can't sell it fast enough. While illegal sales still exist, they're a hundred times less profitable given that a) illegal marijuana simply doesn't have the value it used to in states that have legalized and b) the risk of being caught still exists with similar penalties for illegal growing and selling.

If someone wants to deal illegal marijuana where it's otherwise legal, the smartest move is probably to buy it legally and then mark it up for teenagers and other suckers.

 

[acbytesla]

Nothing except reality. Washington and Oregon have so much legal marijuana that they can't sell it fast enough. While illegal sales still exist, they're a hundred times less profitable given that a) illegal marijuana simply doesn't have the value it used to in states that have legalized and b) the risk of being caught still exists with similar penalties for illegal growing and selling.

If someone wants to deal illegal marijuana where it's otherwise legal, the smartest move is probably to buy it legally and then mark it up for teenagers and other suckers.

I guess I'm not really familiar with the market. I was just under the impression that in both states Cannabis was heavily taxed and that it could still be sold profitably outside of a store. Its just something that I think about when I pass those fields.

 

[Babbylonian]

I guess I'm not really familiar with the market. I was just under the impression that in both states Cannabis was heavily taxed and that it could still be sold profitably outside of a store. Its just something that I think about when I pass those fields.

Yes, I can tell that you're not very educated on this subject. I would suggest - especially given your somewhat strong opinions about marijuana - that you might go into a store that sells the evil weed and have a chat about products and prices; unless it's a particularly busy time, an employee will probably be happy to do so. It's perfectly safe, nobody will force you to use drugs, and you won't get high from just being in proximity to dank nugs.

 

[acbytesla]

Yes, I can tell that you're not very educated on this subject. I would suggest - especially given your somewhat strong opinions about marijuana - that you might go into a store that sells marijuana and have a chat about products and prices; unless it's a particularly busy time, an employee will probably be happy to do so. It's perfectly safe, nobody will force you to use drugs, and you won't get high from just being in proximity to dank nugs.

You think that will change my mind about people taking drugs? FYI: My neighbor who lives directly across the street owns and operates a store that sells cannabis.