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Acceptance of Gender Diversity

Strawberry said:
So because some men are homophobic women have no right to privacy when they're changing their clothes?
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Great moving goalposts!

I mean apparently they don't because they are already forced to change in front of the butch queer women and if that makes them uncomfortable they are SOL.

Of course a simple solution would be to stop building these locker rooms with out stalls in the first place, and that then makes it easy to change with out anyone seeing you.

But yes clearly having no right to privacy against homosexuals is the standard for all men now as well or something. I guess it really opens up homosexual peeping toms as there is no right to privacy against homosexuals or something.

The question is what biases are you trying to cater to, clearly you think catering to homo-phobia is bad but catering to trans-phobia is good. But can we get a clear gauge on how I can discriminate and get your seal of approval on it?
 
TragicMonkey said:
(I think that was sarcasm.)
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More reducto ad absurdem by just changing the form of bigotry to one that fewer people here endorse. But apparently men have no right to privacy against gay men now so new hidden camera business opportunities?
 
ponderingturtle said:
Great moving goalposts!

I mean apparently they don't because they are already forced to change in front of the butch queer women and if that makes them uncomfortable they are SOL.

Of course a simple solution would be to stop building these locker rooms with out stalls in the first place, and that then makes it easy to change with out anyone seeing you.

But yes clearly having no right to privacy against homosexuals is the standard for all men now as well or something. I guess it really opens up homosexual peeping toms as there is no right to privacy against homosexuals or something.

The question is what biases are you trying to cater to, clearly you think catering to homo-phobia is bad but catering to trans-phobia is good. But can we get a clear gauge on how I can discriminate and get your seal of approval on it?
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So you seriously think it's transphobia for women not to want to take their clothes off in front of men.

This is a Handmaid's Tale level of misogyny, and its not coming from the religious right where we expected it, but from the supposedly liberal left.
 
ponderingturtle said:
More reducto ad absurdem by just changing the form of bigotry to one that fewer people here endorse. But apparently men have no right to privacy against gay men now so new hidden camera business opportunities?
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Apparently the dominant cultural taboo is seeing the bodies of the opposite sex, regardless of whether there is any sexual interest whatsoever. So straight women do not object to the possibility of being ogled by lecherous lesbians in the lockerroom, but fear the presence of a gay man in there ignoring them. This seems odd to me, but then so much seems odd I can't even begin to fathom people.
 
Strawberry said:
So you seriously think it's transphobia for women not to want to take their clothes off in front of men.
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Well given that you are labeling trans women as men in this, yep that seems to hit trans phobia dead on.

As for non binary individuals and locker rooms, that has not been a huge issue. Has any male sexed non binary individual insisted on using the women's locker room? That does not fit with the non binary individuals I know.

We really need some new version of Godwin's law, that any discussion of trans people or gender non binary will inevitably end up with people complaining about trans women using the women's bathroom.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Apparently the dominant cultural taboo is seeing the bodies of the opposite sex, regardless of whether there is any sexual interest whatsoever. So straight women do not object to the possibility of being ogled by lecherous lesbians in the lockerroom, but fear the presence of a gay man in there ignoring them. This seems odd to me, but then so much seems odd I can't even begin to fathom people.
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It seems odd to you because you don't respect the notion of women having the right to set their own boundaries. Again, misogyny.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Well given that you are labeling trans women as men in this, yep that seems to hit trans phobia dead on.

As for non binary individuals and locker rooms, that has not been a huge issue. Has any male sexed non binary individual insisted on using the women's locker room? That does not fit with the non binary individuals I know.

We really need some new version of Godwin's law, that any discussion of trans people or gender non binary will inevitably end up with people complaining about trans women using the women's bathroom.
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Transwomen are biological males, and if that is transphobia then reality is transphobia.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Apparently the dominant cultural taboo is seeing the bodies of the opposite sex, regardless of whether there is any sexual interest whatsoever. So straight women do not object to the possibility of being ogled by lecherous lesbians in the lockerroom, but fear the presence of a gay man in there ignoring them. This seems odd to me, but then so much seems odd I can't even begin to fathom people.
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And how did this get to trans women in locker rooms when it started about if non binary people exist?
 
Strawberry said:
Transwomen are biological males, and if that is transphobia then reality is transphobia.
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Your declaration does not make it so. The very point of contention is whether transwomen are women.

Eta: sorry, that's the other thread. So instead I'll say "the assumption that transwomen are not women is not proven."
 
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Strawberry said:
It seems odd to you because you don't respect the notion of women having the right to set their own boundaries. Again, misogyny.
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Again, I don't accept your premise that transwomen are not women, so from my perspective you are attempting to discriminate against one subset of women by granting superior rights to another subset of women. Objecting to that isn't misogyny as both the victims and oppressors are women.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Your declaration does not make it so. The very point of contention is whether transwomen are women.

Eta: sorry, that's the other thread. So instead I'll say "the assumption that transwomen are not women is not proven."
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I think it is pretty easy to say people who call trans women men are transphobic. That is a real easy and low bar right there.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Your declaration does not make it so. The very point of contention is whether transwomen are women.

Eta: sorry, that's the other thread. So instead I'll say "the assumption that transwomen are not women is not proven."
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And the reality is that transwomen are not women. Transwomen are a type of man.

This nonsense really is the creationism of the left.
 
Strawberry said:
And the reality is that transwomen are not women. Transwomen are a type of man.

This nonsense really is the creationism of the left.
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This may startle and amaze you, but some people not only disagree with your opinion but -- you should sit down for this part-- aren't going to change their minds just because you tell them what "reality is"!
 
Strawberry said:
Transwomen are a type of man.
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I suspect that what you mean by this is that people who have transitioned from male to female retain enough sexual characteristics of males to count as male, in your understanding. Hard to say, though, since "man" is a social role in addition to a biological category. May I safely assume you're focusing on sex (biological features) rather than gender (social expectations and presentations)?
 
d4m10n said:
I suspect that what you mean by this is that people who have transitioned from male to female retain enough sexual characteristics of males to count as male, in your understanding. Hard to say, though, since "man" is a social role in addition to a biological category. May I safely assume you're focusing on sex (biological features) rather than gender (social expectations and presentations)?
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Reads much more as straight up rejection that trans women exist.
 
ponderingturtle said:
I think it is pretty easy to say people who call trans women men are transphobic. That is a real easy and low bar right there.
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Maybe so. Or maybe many people just do not know, or care.

For anyone with whom I have a reasonably close relationship I will accept their gender identity without pause. This is a very small group of people.

For all the billions of strangers out there I pay very little attention. If, at a short glance, a person appears to dress and appear in superficial physical ways as a woman then they are a woman to me, and if I find it necessary to refer to them in any way I will refer to them as a woman. Likewise a stranger with the general appearance of a man. If a person's appearance in indeterminate then they are indeterminate. If any stranger actually identifies as something other than their physical appearance suggests I just plain don't care.
 
Steve said:
Maybe so. Or maybe many people just do not know, or care.

For anyone with whom I have a reasonably close relationship I will accept their gender identity without pause. This is a very small group of people.

For all the billions of strangers out there I pay very little attention. If, at a short glance, a person appears to dress and appear in superficial physical ways as a woman then they are a woman to me, and if I find it necessary to refer to them in any way I will refer to them as a woman. Likewise a stranger with the general appearance of a man. If a person's appearance in indeterminate then they are indeterminate. If any stranger actually identifies as something other than their physical appearance suggests I just plain don't care.
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And that has absolutely nothing to do with the context of specifically referring to all trans women as men, as was done previously.
 
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