Acceptance of Gender Diversity

[TragicMonkey]

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove breach of rule 12

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove rule 12 breach

 

[d4m10n]

I think male and female are genders as well as, obviously, biological sexes.

I think we tear down the sex / gender distinction at our own peril.

When I hear or use the word sex^WP, I mean a collection of observable biological characteristics, such as whether one produces ova or sperm and whether one carries a Y chromosome. There are all sorts of (admittedly rare) intermediate conditions falling between the two sexes, such as CAIS.

When I hear or use the word gender^WP, I mean a "range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity." I do not mean a range of characteristics differentiating between masculinity, femininity, and [THIRD WAY OF PRESENTING OR PERCEIVING ONESELF], but then I wasn't raised in Navajo culture or Native Hawaiian culture or another culture with a well established and widely understood third gender. (Then again, neither were the respondents of the Australia Talks National Survey project.)

 

[ponderingturtle]

Isn't gender (as opposed to sex) a relatively novel social construct?

ETA: John Money^WP, circa 1955

Nope, there is millennia of history of it across many cultures. It is just westerners who are finally catching on. Kind of like the idea that homosexuality is not a moral failure or insanity.

 

[ponderingturtle]

re the highlighted: I don't think it's a fact that can be observed is it?

Well I guess we can call all anthropology and such as lacking in fact as well. Of course then any counters are also lacking fact.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I think we tear down the sex / gender distinction at our own peril.

When I hear or use the word sex^WP, I mean a collection of observable biological characteristics, such as whether one produces ova or sperm and whether one carries a Y chromosome. There are all sorts of (admittedly rare) intermediate conditions falling between the two sexes, such as CAIS.

When I hear or use the word gender^WP, I mean a "range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity." I do not mean a range of characteristics differentiating between masculinity, femininity, and [THIRD WAY OF PRESENTING OR PERCEIVING ONESELF], but then I wasn't raised in Navajo culture or Native Hawaiian culture or another culture with a well established and widely understood third gender. (Then again, neither were the respondents of the Australia Talks National Survey project.)

But masculinity-feminity is its own spectrum, of behavior. I know a lot of masculine women and feminine men, but I wouldn't say their gender isn't female and male respectively. A very femme gay man is still male sex and male gendered, even if he had the mannerisms stereotypically assumed to be female.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to conform with moderated post

.

And normal males uncomfortable taking their clothes off around gay males is also a real thing and they need their views accepted too.

 

[ponderingturtle]

There's plenty of evidence that homosexuality has existed for millennia, transgenderism not so much.

Just like animals only started having gay sex recently, you look further back there is simply no evidence of it.

Or you know you could accept the actual evidence there is from the past. Like the cultures with more than two genders.

 

[TragicMonkey]

And normal males uncomfortable taking their clothes off around gay males is also a real thing and they need their views accepted too.

"You must tolerate the intolerant" isn't really the baffling paradox some people like to pretend it is.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I think we tear down the sex / gender distinction at our own peril.

When I hear or use the word sex^WP, I mean a collection of observable biological characteristics, such as whether one produces ova or sperm and whether one carries a Y chromosome. There are all sorts of (admittedly rare) intermediate conditions falling between the two sexes, such as CAIS.

When I hear or use the word gender^WP, I mean a "range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity." I do not mean a range of characteristics differentiating between masculinity, femininity, and [THIRD WAY OF PRESENTING OR PERCEIVING ONESELF], but then I wasn't raised in Navajo culture or Native Hawaiian culture or another culture with a well established and widely understood third gender. (Then again, neither were the respondents of the Australia Talks National Survey project.)

How does this invalidate the existence of more than two genders in those and other cultures as there can not be more than two genders in yours? What makes those people so different from you that your hard gender binary is more true than their non binary genders?

 

[DuvalHMFIC]

Everyone is equal yet striving desperately to be different. Go figure.

Be you, do you. But having to have 74,000 different genders? To me it's like the guy that says he's Italian because his great-great grandmother was from Italy. "See, I'm different!" Again, be yourself and do what makes you happy. But the labels are mostly there to make people feel "special." This is heightened by social media as well, where everyone is wanting to be seen, to get likes, etc.

We've tried for a long time to try to remove the labels of race, for instance. You don't want to be called "a black man", just "a man." We now call a "mailman" a "mail carrier." There are no more stewardesses, they are "flight attendants." And yet we are now sticking NEW labels on people?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Everyone is equal yet striving desperately to be different. Go figure.

Be you, do you. But having to have 74,000 different genders? To me it's like the guy that says he's Italian because his great-great grandmother was from Italy. "See, I'm different!" Again, be yourself and do what makes you happy. But the labels are mostly there to make people feel "special." This is heightened by social media as well, where everyone is wanting to be seen, to get likes, etc.

We've tried for a long time to try to remove the labels of race, for instance. You don't want to be called "a black man", just "a man." We now call a "mailman" a "mail carrier." There are no more stewardesses, they are "flight attendants." And yet we are now sticking NEW labels on people?

Who cares what categories and labels people want to put themselves into? As long as we're treating everybody properly do the labels matter? I'm going to hold the door for someone walking up as I'm going through it whether they consider themselves male, female, neutral, Klingon, or the sedevacantist pope.

 

[d4m10n]

But masculinity-feminity is its own spectrum, of behavior.

Of course, yes. That said, on a greyscale palette ranging from black to white, there are still only two tubes of paint.

A very femme gay man is still male sex and male gendered...

I would say he is cisgendered, if he identifies and presents as a man. Male is a term denoting sex, not gender.

How does this invalidate the existence of more than two genders in those and other cultures...

It does not, however, the Australia Talks National Survey was (presumably) asking about Australian culture in particular.

What makes those people so different from you that your hard gender binary is more true than their non binary genders?

I don't believe I've invoked the term binary, certainly not approvingly. I think the analogy to a color spectrum is fairly apt. Even if it turns out we are doing pointillism with ink.

As I keep saying, this isn't hard unless you want it to be.

As I keep saying, it isn't nearly as easy as you want it to be. The original proposition "There are more than two genders" admits of several distinct interpretations:

1. There are more than two sexes
2. There are more than two gender identities^WP
3. There are more than two forms of gender expression^WP
4. There are more than two basic sets of social expectations associated with sex

I don't know which of these interpretations a typical Aussie would tend to choose, without further context. I get the sense that you strongly prefer the second one, and yes, that does make it rather easy; there are as many subjective senses of self as people care to invent.

 

[Thermal]

Everyone is equal yet striving desperately to be different. Go figure.

Be you, do you. But having to have 74,000 different genders? To me it's like the guy that says he's Italian because his great-great grandmother was from Italy. "See, I'm different!" Again, be yourself and do what makes you happy. But the labels are mostly there to make people feel "special." This is heightened by social media as well, where everyone is wanting to be seen, to get likes, etc.

We've tried for a long time to try to remove the labels of race, for instance. You don't want to be called "a black man", just "a man." We now call a "mailman" a "mail carrier." There are no more stewardesses, they are "flight attendants." And yet we are now sticking NEW labels on people?

This. And if it can't be agreed even if in generalities how many genders there are, it sounds a little like people just making things up on the fly. From the first line in the Wiki quote a few posts up:

"The current distinction between the terms sex difference versus gender difference has been criticized as misleading and counterproductive."

On the proverbial head. I don't think the issue is so much acceptance, as clarifying the terminology. Dropping 'gender' as the descriptor would be a great start.

 

[TragicMonkey]

The only context I'm familiar with the term "gender" being used to mean something precise is in language, like how the Romance language words have gender. And even there is basically "there are two categories, these items fall into this one, others into that one, some into neither, some into both".

 

[Belz...]

How can people disagree with a fact that can be observed and has been reported on so much in recent times?

Fact? How many genders are there, what are they, and what's the observation?

Something does not have to be common for the evidence of its existence to be overwhelming or mountainous.

I know some argue that many transgender folk are just screwed up in the head

Wait a minute. You're conflating two things. The existence of transgender doesn't mean there are extra genders.

There are many, many gender identities. Not just three.

People can identify as whatever they want. That wasn't the question.

I find that I don't actually have to understand something about people before I decide to treat them nicely.

Absolutely true.

 

[DuvalHMFIC]

Who cares what categories and labels people want to put themselves into? As long as we're treating everybody properly do the labels matter? I'm going to hold the door for someone walking up as I'm going through it whether they consider themselves male, female, neutral, Klingon, or the sedevacantist pope.

I agree, and that was my point. People are labeling themselves to be different. There is no actual "use" for these labels, though. You answer your sex at a doctor's office because males and females sometimes require different medical care. But your gender is not really a useful label, other than to differentiate you from the crowd. I'm going to treat everyone the same regardless, always have, always will.

 

[ahhell]

I look at something like this with incredulity. That some folk just deny the undeniable because to not do so challenges their mindset.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11...ustralians-in-australia-talks-survey/11714302




How can people disagree with a fact that can be observed and has been reported on so much in recent times?

Kind of depends on what they mean.

Is it denying the obvious to say, "There are only two genders but some folks are on a spectrum between them"?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Kind of depends on what they mean.

Is it denying the obvious to say, "There are only two genders but some folks are on a spectrum between them"?

But that doesn't help distinguish gender from sex, because we can say the same thing about sex.

 

[Strawberry]

And normal males uncomfortable taking their clothes off around gay males is also a real thing and they need their views accepted too.

So because some men are homophobic women have no right to privacy when they're changing their clothes?

 

[TragicMonkey]

So because some men are homophobic women have no right to privacy when they're changing their clothes?

(I think that was sarcasm.)