Acceptance of Gender Diversity

[Steve]

A heap of those are just the same as others in the list with slightly different wording

eg man and woman = cis man and cis women

So that is two gone for a start

There is a lot of duplication on that list. Looks like whoever compiled it was more interested in a long list than in accurate list.

 

[arthwollipot]

There is a lot of duplication on that list. Looks like whoever compiled it was more interested in a long list than in accurate list.

Like I said, there is no comprehensive list. There's just lists that various people have made, which disagree with each other in various ways.

The only think that is commonly agreed upon is that there is more than two.

 

[cullennz]

In fact it didn't

I missed there is one of the questions is in the article

"Survey respondents were also asked whether they agreed with the statement: "People should be referred to by the gender pronoun they identify with ("he", "she", "they", etc.), even if it differs from the one assigned to them at birth."

Which is actually mixing up sex and gender

 

[cullennz]

You missed it.

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/qmMMAVX.png[/qimg]

Which doesn't make it clear that sex and gender are different

 

[Steve]

Like I said, there is no comprehensive list. There's just lists that various people have made, which disagree with each other in various ways.

The only think that is commonly agreed upon is that there is more than two.

Ok, if that is your point then I am fine with that.

 

[arthwollipot]

Which doesn't make it clear that sex and gender are different

It wasn't asking that question. It was asking if you agree that there are more than two genders, and if you agree that people should refer to others by their pronouns.

As I keep saying, this isn't hard unless you want it to be.

 

[ArchSas]

There's plenty of evidence that homosexuality has existed for millennia, transgenderism not so much.

That really depends on what you mean by "transgenderism." There have been (and still are) lots of cultures around the world that recognize more (and sometimes fewer) genders than the two typically recognized in modern "western" culture (or however you want to label it). That's a well-documented fact. If you want to argue that doesn't technically count as trans because they don't typically involve transitioning between binary genders, I guess I could understand that point (although I don't agree with it, because it seems disingenuous and relies on oversimplifying the issue to a ridiculous degree), but if you're trying to argue that no one ever identified as anything besides whatever their culture dictated based on genitals before 100 years ago or so, that's flat out wrong.

Just like homosexuality has presented itself in numerous ways across history and cultures, gender identity and expressions of it have varied as well.

 

[cullennz]

It wasn't asking that question. It was asking if you agree that there are more than two genders, and if you agree that people should refer to others by their pronouns.

As I keep saying, this isn't hard unless you want it to be.

My initial point was whether the thing clarified the difference between sex and gender first.

I think you know why, but are just being purposefully not understanding why.

Because quite a lot of people (especially older people) still think they are interchangeable and would have answered the questions based on gender meaning biological sex.

So some of the ones saying there are only 2 are meaning biological sexes.

Which is true

Which means they aren't stupid, apart from the idiots doing the survey did it poorly

Especially when the question I posted actually mixes them together.

But as I say

I think you know this

 

[arthwollipot]

Here's more, from Wikipedia.

Criticism of the "sex difference" versus "gender difference" distinction

The current distinction between the terms sex difference versus gender difference has been criticized as misleading and counterproductive. These terms suggest that the behavior of an individual can be partitioned into separate biological and cultural factors. (However, behavioral differences between individuals can be statistically partitioned, as studied by behavioral genetics.) Instead, all behaviors are phenotypes—a complex interweaving of both nature and nurture.[41]

Diane Halpern, in her book Sex Differences in Cognitive Abilities, argued problems with sex vs. gender terminology: "I cannot argue (in this book) that nature and nurture are inseparable and then... use different terms to refer to each class of variables. The ...biological manifestations of sex are confounded with psychosocial variables.... The use of different terms to label these two types of contributions to human existence seemed inappropriate in light of the biopsychosocial position I have taken." She quotes Steven Pinker's summary of the problems with the terms sex and gender: "Part of it is a new prissiness -- many people today are as squeamish about sexual dimorphism as the Victorians were about sex. But part of it is a limitation of the English language. The word 'sex' refers ambiguously to copulation and to sexual dimorphism..."[42] Richard Lippa writes in Gender, Nature and Nurture that "Some researchers have argued that the word sex should be used to refer to (biological differences), whereas the word gender should be used to refer to (cultural differences). However, it is not at all clear the degree to which the differences between males and females are due to biological factors versus learned and cultural factors. Furthermore, indiscriminate use of the word gender tends to obscure the distinction between two different topics: (a) differences between males and females, and (b) individual differences in maleness and femaleness that occur within each sex."[43]

It has been suggested that more useful distinctions to make would be whether a behavioral difference between the sexes is first due to an evolved adaptation, then, if so, whether the adaptation is sexually dimorphic (different) or sexually monomorphic (the same in both sexes). The term sex difference could then be re-defined as between-sex differences that are manifestations of a sexually dimorphic adaptation (which is how many scientists use the term),[44][45] while the term gender difference could be re-defined as due to differential socialization between the sexes of a monomorphic adaptation or byproduct. For example, greater male propensity toward physical aggression and risk taking would be termed a "sex difference;" the generally longer head hair length of females would be termed a "gender difference."[46]

If you think that it is important to make it clear that sex and gender are different, actually doing it is a bit more complicated than that. Which is why the video I posted is still relevant, even if it wasn't a direct answer to the question that was asked.

 

[arthwollipot]

My initial point was whether the thing clarified the difference between sex and gender first.

I think you know why, but are just being purposefully not understanding why.

Because quite a lot of people (especially older people) still think they are interchangeable and would have answered the questions based on gender meaning biological sex.

Older people would tell you that "gender" is a linguistic term and refers to nouns, not people. But you're wrong. I hear young people, even young trans and nonbinary people, using the words interchangeably all the time.

What matters is how the words are used, not how they are defined. The questions were not ambiguous. Are there more than two genders? and Should we refer to people by their pronouns? Very clear.

So some of the ones saying there are only 2 are meaning biological sexes.

Which is true

Uh, no it isn't. That's what the video I posted was all about. There are also more than two biological sexes.

 

[cullennz]

Older people would tell you that "gender" is a linguistic term and refers to nouns, not people. But you're wrong. I hear young people, even young trans and nonbinary people, using the words interchangeably all the time.

What matters is how the words are used, not how they are defined. The questions were not ambiguous. Are there more than two genders? and Should we refer to people by their pronouns? Very clear.

Uh, no it isn't. That's what the video I posted was all about. There are also more than two biological sexes.

That is why I used the word especially

And it is 2019 Australia not 19th century Britain.

The amount of average Aussies who still think gender refers to language who are still alive would be tiny, even if they own a computer.

It has been used on forms as a replacement sex, for at least 40 years

Yes there are intersex.

The vast majority the parents pick the bits to keep and the even rarer ones they can't, is getting a bit pedantic on a public survey to nit pick over

 

[cullennz]

Here's more, from Wikipedia.

Criticism of the "sex difference" versus "gender difference" distinction

If you think that it is important to make it clear that sex and gender are different, actually doing it is a bit more complicated than that. Which is why the video I posted is still relevant, even if it wasn't a direct answer to the question that was asked.

It is important if you want an accurate survey result.

But agree it isn't an easy thing to word on a basic survey

 

[Puppycow]

I'll take that as a no.

Intersex isn't a gender, obviously.

Many of the so-called genders you've linked are described in terms of male and female, which are also not genders.

I think male and female are genders as well as, obviously, biological sexes.

If you ask me what my sex is, I would answer male. If you asked me what my gender is, the answer would be the same. (A gender abolitionist or gender critical feminist might answer that gender isn't really a thing; there is only sex. But that's not my position.)

 

[arthwollipot]

It is important if you want an accurate survey result.

The survey isn't asking what you are demanding it to ask! It wasn't designed to ask what you are demanding it to ask.

It's a simple survey. Tell me if you agree or disagree. Is there more than one gender? Should we refer to people by their pronouns?

Why are you trying to make it complicated?

 

[cullennz]

The survey isn't asking what you are demanding it to ask! It wasn't designed to ask what you are demanding it to ask.

It's a simple survey. Tell me if you agree or disagree. Is there more than one gender? Should we refer to people by their pronouns?

Why are you trying to make it complicated?

Because it doesn't explain what they mean by gender to who may not know.

Maybe they should have added a first question to the survey.

Do you think gender and biological sex are different?

Then they can throw out all the ones that say no, or at least be aware how many people don't know the difference.

But no

You would rather slag off people who still think they are the same as they don't actually care. Which is a hell of a lot of people in the later

 

[arthwollipot]

Because it doesn't explain what they mean by gender to who may not know.

Maybe they should have added a first question to the survey.

Do you think gender and biological sex are different?

Then they can throw out all the ones that say no, or at least be aware how many people don't know the difference.

But no

You would rather slag off people who still think they are the same as they don't actually care. Which is a hell of a lot of people in the later

I'm not "slagging off" any damn people. Get the **** off your high horse.

There is clearly very little confusion about what the survey is asking. Of the 54,000 people who responded, only 2% answered "don't know" to the first question, and 3% to the second. In terms of statistics, that's negligible. You're making it harder than it really is. Why?

 

[cullennz]

I'm not "slagging off" any damn people. Get the **** off your high horse.

There is clearly very little confusion about what the survey is asking. Of the 54,000 people who responded, only 2% answered "don't know" to the first question, and 3% to the second. In terms of statistics, that's negligible. You're making it harder than it really is. Why?

Yes. Because the ones answering on the assumption it meant sex thought they did know?

Fine

You pretend this survey is an amazingly accurate reflection on actual gender opinions of the public.... A real eye opener even.

And I will just know it is crap.

 

[arthwollipot]

"Yes" is not an answer to "Why?"

 

[cullennz]

"Yes" is not an answer to "Why?"

Because the results are utterly unreliable.

 

[arthwollipot]

Because the results are utterly unreliable.

Well. I will give you that it's a self-selected survey representing the opinions of what ultimately is not a large proportion of the Australian population, which covered a range of social attitudes. The article in the OP is one of a series of articles on the ABC website analysing the results of the survey.

But "utterly unreliable"? I think you are still demanding of it something that it wasn't designed to do.

Here's more about the Australia Talks National Survey project. It's not something that was just slapped together. It's reliable enough for the purpose it was designed for. It was designed by a group of data scientists and social scientists, in collaboration from a group of academics and the University of Melbourne. Perhaps you should take up your concerns with them.