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Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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Changing rooms such as in a sports venue? I would say you use the one you are most physically like, so if you are a trans man and still have female looking genitals you use the womens changing room, and vice a versa. Yes this make some people uncomfortable and others unhappy but that's another "tough" from me.

Sports? It is part of the entertainment industry so I say it is up to the private organisations involved to make their own calls. If some entertainments stop being fun for the participants or audiences they'll fade away and I am sure someone will innovate with something that captures people's attention.

The second paragraph is a cop-out since the subject of the first paragraph, changing rooms in sports venues, is equally part of said private entertainment industry but there you don't say "each venue should make its own call."
 
The second paragraph is a cop-out since the subject of the first paragraph, changing rooms in sports venues, is equally part of said private entertainment industry but there you don't say "each venue should make its own call."
Not seeing that myself, and I simply can't get myself worked up about sports. Personally if I had any input into criteria for sports I'd go with the sort of categorisation that I think Rolfe and another member posted about. Again that would make some people unhappy but that's a "tough" from me.
 
I'm honestly not clear on what the current law does and doesn't allow. I understand it requires something more than simple self-declaration. That's sufficient for my argument.

UK or US? In the US the legal situation is more complicated, but, as the case Rolfe linked to shows, self declaration is adequate in some circumstances.
 
I know you don't want to discuss definitions but I think definitions are what this is all about.

I have great sympathy for trans people, I can understand them just wanting to be themselves and they find it terrible when they can't be. I.e. a trans man being told they have to use the women's toilets.

I don't support the idea that one should be officially able to change their gender just by saying so, it isn't like changing a name.

If someone has as the case is currently in the UK been medically diagnosed and lived as their preferred gender for 2 years I think they should be able to have their gender officially changed.

The issue as I see it is then becomes a case of "what does it mean to officially change your gender?". And that is where various "rights" come into conflicts and it seems there is no way to make everyone 100% happy so whatever we come up with will result in no one being happy, the fine art of compromise.

Straight forward toilets? Your official gender should determine which you can use. Yes that will make some people uncomfortable but that's a "tough" from me. Going to the loo is just a bodily function.

Changing rooms such as in a sports venue? I would say you use the one you are most physically like, so if you are a trans man and still have female looking genitals you use the womens changing room, and vice a versa. Yes this make some people uncomfortable and others unhappy but that's another "tough" from me.

Sports? It is part of the entertainment industry so I say it is up to the private organisations involved to make their own calls. If some entertainments stop being fun for the participants or audiences they'll fade away and I am sure someone will innovate with something that captures people's attention.

Medically? That is based on your sex.

Services? Depends on what they are. So no no one should be forced to wax male genitals because they offer waxing of female genitals. But if it is say for getting your haircut then a trans person should be treated as per their official gender.

Makes sense to me.
 
The second paragraph is a cop-out since the subject of the first paragraph, changing rooms in sports venues, is equally part of said private entertainment industry but there you don't say "each venue should make its own call."

I think in this case, he was referring to "sports venues" such as public pools or similar institutions where people change clothes to participate.
 
I present this thread as a discussion point. Yes we can all write the script about the poor "transwoman" being "kicked out of the ladies" by bouncers and how terrible this was, but the guy looks like a guy. Why was he in the ladies? Nobody would have batted an eyelid at him in the gents. Why choose to provoke a confrontation?

https://twitter.com/LaraAdamsMille1/status/1196219482928287745

The point being made by Lara is that the only way to avoid this is for women never to challenge a man in the ladies room, because any man can then claim to be trans and then you're a vile transphobe. This is precisely how women lose the ability to police their safe space.

Also note the tweet below from Fionne. I've seen similar from Miranda.

I've never yet seen a woman photograph herself inside a public bathroom of any description. What is it with men and mirror-selfies in the loo?
 
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I've never yet seen a woman photograph herself inside a public bathroom of any description. What is it with men and mirrir-selfies in the loo?

It's a common place for people of any sex to take photos. Your age is showing!
 
I've seen more images of smug men posting selfies in the ladies loo than I care to count. Some of them had had to be censored because they were masturbating when they took the picture. I have never seen a single image posted online where a woman has photographed herself in the loo. Perhaps I follow the wrong accounts.
 
I've seen more images of smug men posting selfies in the ladies loo than I care to count. Some of them had had to be censored because they were masturbating when they took the picture. I have never seen a single image posted online where a woman has photographed herself in the loo. Perhaps I follow the wrong accounts.

I fear your anecdote of selecting data fails to pass the bar of what constitutes evidence.
 
I came across a link on twitter to a video on a US newspaper web site....There had been a rather protracted dispute with him refusing private facilities and insisting on getting changed with the girls. …

This seems emblematic of the whole situation. Women and girls are constantly being told to suck it up and castigated for bigotry when they try to articulate their desire for privacy and modesty, while the males are given everything they want. Nobody ever tells the boy who has decided that he's trans to suck it up, or ask him what his problem is changing beside other people with the same genitalia as he has, or calls him bigoted for not wanting to do that.

I want to expand a bit here. It illustrates a few things.

First, in many of these threads, especially from a few years back, it was always said that "no trans woman would ever" make it plain she was a biological male, by letting people see the proof. I guess there have been enough cases where it has happened that people have kind of dropped that argument. In this case, given an opportunity to hide the goods, the transgirl specifically chose to not do so.

Second, it seems that the transgirl is also acting without any consideration at all for his/her fellow students. Yes, she would prefer things to be a certain way, but surely there would be some empathy from her, to recognize that her presence, with her visible junk bulge and all, would make them uncomfortable, and s/he would understand that, and be willing to compromise.

Third, there's something I've wondered about in a few similar stories. Generally, people who went to the same grade school go to the same high school. In other words, a lot of the girls in that locker room had known this kid for as long as they could remember, and known her as a boy. Who knows? Maybe thay had a crush on him, or she them. Surely that would make people understand why they clearly know the biological status and create even more awkwardness involved, and surely she would sympathize and do a little bit to ease that discomfort? Apparently not.

And finally, what if they didn't have a crush on him? What if, in fact, when she was a he, they thought he was the weird kid. He was the kid they had to dance with at dance lessons, but he gave them the creeps. I know we aren't supposed to say bad things about kids, and they're all wonderful and perfect and all that, but the fact is that sometimes the unpopular kids are unpopular because they are really creepy. So now the girls are in a position where there's this this creepy boy that they've known all their lives, and now he wants to wear women's underwear and watch them undress.

Is that mean? Is that rude to say? Is that transphobic? It's all of those things, I suppose. But it's also quite real Are teenage girls just supposed to suddenly pretend that their feelings for this person, good or bad, don't matter, and just casually take off their clothes in his presence, the same way they would with the girls they've known all their lives?

I just think that's asking a little bit too much. I think the transgirl ought to at least take the very small gesture of putting their minds at ease as best she can, and the fact that she won't makes me really wonder what's going through her head.
 
It's a common place for people of any sex to take photos. Your age is showing!

Reason number 11,548 to feel old.

For what it's worth, I've never seen a non-pornographic loo selfie by anyone who was in the bathroom that matched their biological sex......but I have never signed onto Instagram. The only large quantity of party selfies I've ever seen came from Bat Mitzvah parties, and those probably aren't representative, either.
 
I just think that's asking a little bit too much. I think the transgirl ought to at least take the very small gesture of putting their minds at ease as best she can, and the fact that she won't makes me really wonder what's going through her head.


I think that's a good overview of much that is wrong with this, and indeed the reason why I won't refer to this person as any sort of girl, or as "she".

These boys and men claim that they "feel" like women in their heads (whatever that means, most women won't claim to know what it feels like to be "a woman", they only know what it feels like to be them, to have lived in a female body and dealt with the consequences of this all their lives), or even to be "really women", to be "brain intersex". And then they exhibit a sense of male entitlement that in many cases beggars belief. The bullying, the put-downs, the triumphalism whenever they score a victory that leaves women or girls crushed, it's all there.

This is not the behaviour of someone socialised as a woman, or possessing a "female brain", whatever that is. Women and girls are socialised to be kind, accommodating, sympathetic, to put others first. I'm not saying every women does that, there are bitches out there, or that it can't be overcome - and I think many of us would do well to try to overcome it sometimes. But it's a clear and observable feminine trait, whether it's innate or (far more likely) socially imposed. And these AGP boys and men have absolutely none of it.

They are playing on women's sympathy, and society's expectation that women will always be the ones to move over, to make room, to prioritise men's desires over their own. And I think this has got to stop.
 
Reason number 11,548 to feel old.

For what it's worth, I've never seen a non-pornographic loo selfie by anyone who was in the bathroom that matched their biological sex......but I have never signed onto Instagram. The only large quantity of party selfies I've ever seen came from Bat Mitzvah parties, and those probably aren't representative, either.

For heaven's sake, a bathroom selfie isn't that crazy: it's the one room in the house, and the one place in public, that's virtually guaranteed to have a nice, big mirror in it. With decent lighting, too, if it's done properly. Bathrooms are therefore frequently the best place to take self-photos if one is doing it to photograph oneself alone and not oneself at some particular location like a tourist spot. Profile pictures, for example.
 
For heaven's sake, a bathroom selfie isn't that crazy: it's the one room in the house, and the one place in public, that's virtually guaranteed to have a nice, big mirror in it. With decent lighting, too, if it's done properly. Bathrooms are therefore frequently the best place to take self-photos if one is doing it to photograph oneself alone and not oneself at some particular location like a tourist spot. Profile pictures, for example.

I stand corrected. I meant bathroom selfies outside the home. I have seen non-pornographic pictures of people taken in their own bathrooms. But those bathrooms aren't gender-specific anyway.

I'm willing to acknowledge that the younger generation may very well be snapping photos in the bathroom at the pub or club or restaurant on a regular basis.
 
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