Flat earth conspiracy spreads globally

[Jack by the hedge]

There ought to be consequences for being wrong about flat earth.

If there were consequences, they'd just choose something else to be defiantly, stubbornly wrong about. Consequence-free contrarianism is its own reward.

 

[kellyb]

All kinds of research has been done about why people become conspiracy theorists.

The reward of "consequence-free contrarianism" has never been identified as a factor, to my knowledge.

It's all stuff like this:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0963721417718261

Belief in conspiracy theories appears to be driven by motives that can be characterized as epistemic (understanding one’s environment), existential (being safe and in control of one’s environment), and social (maintaining a positive image of the self and the social group).

Hating people and wanting to see them punished just for holding false beliefs is kinda weird. Why do people feel that way? I feel bad abut making fun of them sometimes, personally. It's not me being my best self.

 

[kellyb]

Sagan was a fan of "consequence-free freethought."

https://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/sagan-and-skepticism/

The chief difficulty I see in the skeptical movement is in its polarizations: Us vs. Them — the sense that we [skeptics] have a monopoly on the truth; that those other people who believe in all these stupid doctrines are morons; that if you’re sensible, you’ll listen to us; and if not, you’re beyond redemption. This is unconstructive. It does not get the message across.

Very strange to see "consequences for abuse of free-thought" advocated on a skeptics forum.

 

[bruto]

Sagan was a fan of "consequence-free freethought."

https://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/sagan-and-skepticism/


Very strange to see "consequences for abuse of free-thought" advocated on a skeptics forum.

True if you think everything contrary is simply a matter of free thought. At some point, though, is there not a dividing line between free thought and delusional foolishness? It seems as if these days one of our problems is that we are obligated to respect every stupid idea that comes around as just another way of looking at things. There is a consequence for abuse of free thought, if it involves physical realities that are immediate. You fall to your death, die of disease, kill your kids, get run over, have a heart attack, get bitten by the snake, mauled by the bear, and so forth, and few would take you to task for telling a person "don't do that, or you'll get killed." But somehow when the consequences are not immediate, idiocy becomes controversy, smoke bombs threaten fire, and we end up endangering the very earth because we must respect even the most flagrant delusions.

I do blame religion for much of this. To varying degrees, adherents of various religions are taught that it is not only permissible, but necessary, to deny the obvious. It's hard to keep that genie in the bottle.

 

[kellyb]

True if you think everything contrary is simply a matter of free thought. At some point, though, is there not a dividing line between free thought and delusional foolishness? It seems as if these days one of our problems is that we are obligated to respect every stupid idea that comes around as just another way of looking at things. There is a consequence for abuse of free thought, if it involves physical realities that are immediate. You fall to your death, die of disease, kill your kids, get run over, have a heart attack, get bitten by the snake, mauled by the bear, and so forth. But somehow when the consequences are not immediate, idiocy becomes controversy, smoke bombs threaten fire, and we end up endangering the very earth because we must respect even the most flagrant delusions.

I do blame religion for much of this. To varying degrees, adherents of various religions are taught that it is not only permissible, but necessary, to deny the obvious. It's hard to keep that genie in the bottle.

How does flat earth theory hurt anyone, though?

Some broad principle of "you're entitled to be ******* to believers because they're wrong" does not seem morally sound at all, and it's contrary to skepticism and secular western values in general.

If you're going to say irrational beliefs should come with externally imposed consequences, that's kind of the path to totalitarian China, isn't it?

 

[rockysmith76]

It can't globally on the Flat earth silly, the flatness would impede this. Fake news!

 

[trustbutverify]

Just a guess, but I think there's a lot of overlap in the Venn diagram.

I wonder what would happen if we added a Holocaust denier set to that diagram.

 

[trustbutverify]

There are certainly a number of the "Leaders" that clearly know that they are pedaling BS, and others that are trolls, but there are also those that have been sucked into and either don't want to know the truth because it's now their community and they don't want to be excommunicated, or because they simply don't have the education to be able to combat the lies being told to them.

I agree. However, I don't see how any of this contradicts my claim that the majority of flat- Earthers are sincere. Yes, the originators were mostly trolls, who set out to prove they could make the Matrix generation believe virtually anything... if it was packaged correctly. (spoiler alert: they were right). And, of course, there are the inevitable opportunists looking to separate fools from their money. But both of these groups are dwarfed by the rank and file; an army of self absorbed half-wits willing to believe anything that makes them feel important.

 

[trustbutverify]

Some self-identifying skeptics are the same way, just one the other side, and they believe what they believe about the earth's shape because NASA says so, and their teachers told them it was true as kids. They've never put a moment's thought into how to debunk it themselves, but they know people who disagree with them are sheep, or stupid.

Interesting. Virtually the exact same argument promulgated by Holocaust deniers, almost word for word.

 

[kellyb]

Interesting. Virtually the exact same argument promulgated by Holocaust deniers, almost word for word.

Ha! If you say so, man.

So, you're a skeptic, but you wholly disagree with Sagan here?

The chief difficulty I see in the skeptical movement is in its polarizations: Us vs. Them — the sense that we [skeptics] have a monopoly on the truth; that those other people who believe in all these stupid doctrines are morons; that if you’re sensible, you’ll listen to us; and if not, you’re beyond redemption. This is unconstructive. It does not get the message across.

and here:
https://www.brainpickings.org/2016/11/09/carl-sagan-demon-haunted-world-ignorance-compassion/

We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are… Because its explanatory power is so great, once you get the hang of scientific reasoning you’re eager to apply it everywhere. However, in the course of looking deeply within ourselves, we may challenge notions that give comfort before the terrors of the world.

and...
https://www.brainpickings.org/2015/11/09/carl-sagan-science-democracy/

We are constantly prodding, challenging, seeking contradictions or small, persistent residual errors, proposing alternative explanations, encouraging heresy. We give our highest rewards to those who convincingly disprove established beliefs.

Finding the occasional straw of truth awash in a great ocean of confusion and bamboozle requires vigilance, dedication, and courage. But if we don’t practice these tough habits of thought, we cannot hope to solve the truly serious problems that face us.

 

[Dr. Keith]

A poster here used to comment in threads like this that for almost everyone, most of the time, the earth is practically flat.

This was typically followed by the question: what have you done today or even this week that required you to know that the earth was not flat?

For most people the answer is: nothing.

I'm not trying to steal that position, just thought it appropriate to the thread.

 

[kellyb]

A poster here used to comment in threads like this that for almost everyone, most of the time, the earth is practically flat.

This was typically followed by the question: what have you done today or even this week that required you to know that the earth was not flat?

For most people the answer is: nothing.

I'm not trying to steal that position, just thought it appropriate to the thread.

I'm not really sure where the train of thought is supposed to go from there, or what exactly is being implied.

 

[JoeMorgue]

There are certainly a number of the "Leaders" that clearly know that they are pedaling BS, and others that are trolls, but there are also those that have been sucked into and either don't want to know the truth because it's now their community and they don't want to be excommunicated, or because they simply don't have the education to be able to combat the lies being told to them.

The Flat Earthers are an extreme case of it, but that's true for all Woo Movements. There's a handful of legit predatory people at the top, some genuinely mentally ill people in the margins, and a lot of sad people who just want to belong filling out the rest.

One of my favorite moments was something Penn Jillette said on the B.S. episode about alien abduction enthusiasts but it holds true for most Woo Slingers. (Language cleaned up for the MA).

There's no evidence that these people had any unusual experiences. They're just like all the rest of us with dreams and fantasies. We all need a little attention. That shrink is a scumbag bitch taking money from lonely, sad people in exchange for BS, but the abductees are just people who pathologically need a little attention like... well, like us. You want to stop all this alien BS? Just pay attention to the people around you. Say Hi. Humans are desperate for human contact. Let's not make our fellow travelers spend sixty bucks an hour to some pig-dog to be the center of attention. People shouldn't have to convince themselves they have a reptilian lover in outer space to get a few minutes of your time. P & T are siding with the creeps. We always have. We love them. We are them. There are enough earthly reasons to be interested in each other. The BS just gets in the way.

 

[bruto]

How does flat earth theory hurt anyone, though?

Some broad principle of "you're entitled to be ******* to believers because they're wrong" does not seem morally sound at all, and it's contrary to skepticism and secular western values in general.

If you're going to say irrational beliefs should come with externally imposed consequences, that's kind of the path to totalitarian China, isn't it?

Obviously (or so I'd thought) the kind of consequences differ. Flat earth belief hurts no-one as long as it does not result in stupid policies or practices that do hurt someone. Dismal history pretty clearly indicates that it would be wrong and foolish to punish or cause harm to people for their beliefs, but I think it equally wrong to suggest that we may not criticize them, or that we must accept them even if they do result in negative consequences. A flat earther is pretty harmless bloviating on the internet. A bit more harmful if he teaches his children with false ideas. A bit more harmful if he is hired by a university to teach astronomy. Those are all consequences of his belief. It would be wrong to burn him at the stake, but would it be wrong to call him a fool? Wrong to consider him unqualified to teach science? Those are all consequences imposed for his belief.

I suspect we're now seeing some of the result of the idea that everything is an opinion, all opinions deserve respect, and reality is malleable.

 

[CORed]

A poster here used to comment in threads like this that for almost everyone, most of the time, the earth is practically flat.

This was typically followed by the question: what have you done today or even this week that required you to know that the earth was not flat?

For most people the answer is: nothing.

I'm not trying to steal that position, just thought it appropriate to the thread.

It's a valid point. However, as an avid watcher of sunrises and sunsets, every time I see the clouds turn orange with filtered sunlight reflecting of their bottom side, as the shadow of the earth moves up or down opposite the sun, I know it's round. Flat earthers, despite some vague handwaving about perspective, refraction and the "spotlight sun", utterly fail to account for what can be seen twice on every clear day.

 

[JoeMorgue]

A poster here used to comment in threads like this that for almost everyone, most of the time, the earth is practically flat.

This was typically followed by the question: what have you done today or even this week that required you to know that the earth was not flat?

For most people the answer is: nothing.

I'm not trying to steal that position, just thought it appropriate to the thread.

Ah yes the "Sherlock Holmes Argument."

"Not knowing" is one thing. I disagree that it's in anyway excusable for a sane person living in 2019, but it's a far cry from actively joining a movement to argue against it.

 

[kellyb]

Obviously (or so I'd thought) the kind of consequences differ. Flat earth belief hurts no-one as long as it does not result in stupid policies or practices that do hurt someone. Dismal history pretty clearly indicates that it would be wrong and foolish to punish or cause harm to people for their beliefs, but I think it equally wrong to suggest that we may not criticize them, or that we must accept them even if they do result in negative consequences. A flat earther is pretty harmless bloviating on the internet. A bit more harmful if he teaches his children with false ideas. A bit more harmful if he is hired by a university to teach astronomy. Those are all consequences of his belief. It would be wrong to burn him at the stake, but would it be wrong to call him a fool? Wrong to consider him unqualified to teach science? Those are all consequences imposed for his belief.

I suspect we're now seeing some of the result of the idea that everything is an opinion, all opinions deserve respect, and reality is malleable.

Honestly, even calling him names is counterproductive. That's how you get Trump supporters.

Do you think parents should be prohibited from teaching their kids their religion, or should we move to the Chinese system?

 

[kellyb]

Ah yes the "Sherlock Holmes Argument."

"Not knowing" is one thing. I disagree that it's in anyway excusable for a sane person living in 2019, but it's a far cry from actively joining a movement to argue against it.

What are you referring to?

 

[JoeMorgue]

We can have intellectual standards without jackbooted thugs kicked your door in at the middle of the night and dragging your kids off to camps to be re-educated.

There's no law that says saying, thinking, promoting, or walking outside picketing with a sign that says "2+2=5" is illegal. You can't be arrested for it, you can't be jailed for it, you won't be deported for it.

But you just wouldn't function in society for long with that opinion because nobody would be making excuses for you or making you being wrong easier on you.

That's all we need to do.

Being wrong shouldn't be illegal. What it should be is difficult.

 

[kellyb]

The Flat Earthers are an extreme case of it, but that's true for all Woo Movements. There's a handful of legit predatory people at the top, some genuinely mentally ill people in the margins, and a lot of sad people who just want to belong filling out the rest.

One of my favorite moments was something Penn Jillette said on the B.S. episode about alien abduction enthusiasts but it holds true for most Woo Slingers. (Language cleaned up for the MA).

"UFOlogists" aren't like that.