Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

[Belz...]

Yes, people did say that.

I'd ask you to quote them, but so far you don't have a great track record in that respect.

Stop denying the obvious.

I've already told you what "obvious" is code for.

1. Do you object to Self-ID
2. If yes, on what grounds?

Yes, because that's not how we determine objective reality.

Sorry, if you can't see the difference between those things then I can't help you.

And if he did, you wouldn't need to. Very convenient for you.

 

[kellyb]

Sure.

The law states that you have to give access to transwomen to all single-sex spaces. But it also allows for exemptions from this if you can provide a sufficient reason to be exempt. It doesn't spell out specifically what will be sufficient to get an exemption but it's things like health and safety or welfare of individuals.

I interpret more or less to mean that you would not be able to deny a transwoman access to a changing room just because people might feel uncomfortable, but you may well be able to say that our rape crisis centre doesn't accept transwomen.

The onus is on the people wanting the exception to show they need it though, and that there aren't better ways of achieving the same goal. And I think quite often there probably will be.

This is a pretty plain-language summary of the UK law.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/c...men-and-women-when-discrimination-is-allowed/

And with self-ID, you legally get your gender changes as it's recognized according to the law?

If a hypothetical, highly motivated perv who is not trans really, but faked it to get the access, is 3 days a week in the women's shower "showering" and kinda leering at the girls, and kinda grinning at his own manly bits and then making eye contact with them, and then he puts his dress back on and exits, is that even reportable? How would this ever get him investigated and caught?

 

[caveman1917]

If a hypothetical, highly motivated perv

Why would he need to be highly motivated? Simply signing a statement saying "I intend to live as a woman" is hardly a huge barrier that would require high motivation to overcome. I mean, it's already known that for example pedophiles would choose jobs that get them into contact with children, and choosing jobs on such basis seems a bigger hurdle than taking 5 minutes to sign a paper saying "I intend to live as a woman."

 

[kellyb]

nevermind.

 

[Darat]

And with self-ID, you legally get your gender changes as it's recognized according to the law?



If a hypothetical, highly motivated perv who is not trans really, but faked it to get the access, is 3 days a week in the women's shower "showering" and kinda leering at the girls, and kinda grinning at his own manly bits and then making eye contact with them, and then he puts his dress back on and exits, is that even reportable? How would this ever get him investigated and caught?

As Archie said the "self ID" involves living as your new gender for 2 years, having medical reports that you are suffering from BD and then having that checked by the government and then if you meet the criteria your gender is officially changed.

 

[Roboramma]

As Archie said the "self ID" involves living as your new gender for 2 years, having medical reports that you are suffering from BD and then having that checked by the government and then if you meet the criteria your gender is officially changed.

I think the idea of self-ID is doing away with the requirement for the medical reports, but the rest of this is accurate.

(I may be the one who misunderstands)

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Yes, because that's not how we determine objective reality.

Objective reality of what?

That the person is transgender? How would you go about determining the objective reality of that in a better way?

 

[caveman1917]

As Archie said the "self ID" involves living as your new gender for 2 years, having medical reports that you are suffering from BD and then having that checked by the government and then if you meet the criteria your gender is officially changed.

I think the idea of self-ID is doing away with the requirement for the medical reports, but the rest of this is accurate.

(I may be the one who misunderstands)

Here you both go:

The new proposed GRA will remove the requirement to provide medical evidence to the panel, and instead people will have to make a declaration that they intend to live permanently as a man or a woman, and that they have already been living as their stated gender for three months. There will be a three-month “reflection period”, after which the certificate will be given.

From here: https://theferret.scot/gender-recognition-act-self-identification-fact-check/

 

[Belz...]

How would you go about determining the objective reality of that in a better way?

Understanding what transgenderism is and how it arises would help a great deal with that determination.

Every time anything clashes with someone's reporting, we take the objective reality to take priority, except in this one case. I don't subscribe to that.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

And with self-ID, you legally get your gender changes as it's recognized according to the law?

No. With self-ID you change the process by which you legally get your gender change recognised by law. Previously it required a medical assessment by an approved medical professional. Under Self-ID you would not need that assessment.

If a hypothetical, highly motivated perv who is not trans really, but faked it to get the access, is 3 days a week in the women's shower "showering" and kinda leering at the girls, and kinda grinning at his own manly bits and then making eye contact with them, and then he puts his dress back on and exits, is that even reportable? How would this ever get him investigated and caught?

The above has no bearing on Self-ID as the self-id situation would not change any of the above. But to answer your question, anything is reportable, do you mean would it be criminal? That would be down to the police but as a basic rule I would imagine that if the behaviour was out of the ordinary and suspicious then yes.

I suppose the question might be 'would a highly motivated female perv doing the same thing be reportable?' if the answer is yes then the behaviour is probably inappropriate.

 

[caveman1917]

I suppose the question might be 'would a highly motivated female perv doing the same thing be reportable?'

Probably not. But since about 95% of the population is heterosexual that seems to make sex-segregation of such spaces a highly effective measure against such behaviour.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Understanding what transgenderism is and how it arises would help a great deal with that determination.

Every time anything clashes with someone's reporting, we take the objective reality to take priority, except in this one case. I don't subscribe to that.

You seem to be railing against the whole concept of transgenderism here so correct me if I am wrong and I have misunderstood.

Are you saying that 'if a male bodied person says they are a woman, then I will reject that because the objective reality is that they are a male'?

Because if that's the case then you are answering the wrong question - that is not what Self-ID is about.

The situation with Self-ID is about , given that we accept transgenderism is a thing, and given that we accept that people can legally change their sex (and UK law already does this), what is the process by which this should be done?Should we require them to self-report to doctor and then have the doctor report back to the board or should we just have the person report directly themself.

Perhaps this is the reason for us talking past each other? Or at least part of it?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Probably not. But since about 95% of the population is heterosexual that seems to make sex-segregation of such spaces a highly effective measure against such behaviour.

How does that work exactly?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Why would he need to be highly motivated?

I'm not going to risk 2 years in jail to see some middle-aged woman's chuff down my local gym. YMMV.

 

[kellyb]

The above has no bearing on Self-ID as the self-id situation would not change any of the above. But to answer your question, anything is reportable, do you mean would it be criminal? That would be down to the police but as a basic rule I would imagine that if the behaviour was out of the ordinary and suspicious then yes.

I suppose the question might be 'would a highly motivated female perv doing the same thing be reportable?' if the answer is yes then the behaviour is probably inappropriate.

So, you have no idea how it would pan out?

Honestly, the risk of a female perv leering or otherwise being nefarious in the community pool's shower room is just a calculated risk we live with and plan as well as we can to avoid or figure out how to deal with on the spot and hope for the best. They might exist somewhere undetected, tho.

The question is if males that are criminally obsessively into females might exist in higher numbers. Do you think that's possible?

 

[Belz...]

You seem to be railing against the whole concept of transgenderism here so correct me if I am wrong and I have misunderstood.

You are wrong and you've misunderstood.

Are you saying that 'if a male bodied person says they are a woman, then I will reject that because the objective reality is that they are a male'?

What I'm saying is that inasmuch as transgenderism is a real thing, and I believe that it is, determining which cases are instances of it require more than a person's own word; not just because one may lie, but primarily because one may be mistaken. Especially very young people, who can be confused about a lot of things, with their hormones going off the scale, and who can be coaxed by similarily-confused, or misguided parents.

As for the legal requirement, I can't know exactly what it should be, but as I said, if we know the biological/neurological mechanism, then we can make an objective determination, and then medical professionals can certify a person's status much more reliably.

 

[kellyb]

I'm not going to risk 2 years in jail to see some middle-aged woman's chuff down my local gym. YMMV.

YMMV is exactly it.

Do you have this? https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/conditions/voyeuristic-disorder

Voyeuristic Disorder
Voyeuristic disorder is a paraphilic disorder. There are several such disorders, with paraphilic referring to sexual interests, preferences, fantasies, urges, and behaviors outside the norm. These are considered symptoms of a disorder only if they are acted upon in ways that have the potential to cause distress or harm to oneself or others, especially non-consensual others.

The individual normally experiences sexual arousal when spying intentionally on unsuspecting people. The person being watched may be naked, disrobing, or engaging in sexual activities. The voyeur may also record these acts for later viewing.

 

[Joe Random]

Possible jail time isn't a deterrent to the determined. Some people go to great lengths to peep :

Tulsa World reports 52-year-old Kenneth Webster Enlow of Tulsa was arrested around 5 p.m. on Sunday at White Water Park. Enlow was covered in human waste when police apprehended him after he was removed from a holding tank below the permanent outhouse toilet.

The woman who noticed Enlow told police that she "saw the water move" when she looked into the toilet. "As she looked closer, she noticed that there was a man looking up at her," Enlow's arrest report states. The woman's seven-year-old daughter also used the toilet at the time Enlow allegedly watched them.

This was just the first hit on the search I did, there are others. Not to say, of course, that all trans people are voyeurs. The point being made repeatedly is if the bar to being considered a woman is set to self ID only then you'll invariably get voyeurs doing their thing in the guise of being trans.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

So, you have no idea how it would pan out?

I have ideas, but I can't provide you with chapter and verse so I would only be speculating. I imagine what would happen in practice if it was say a private gym is that if they had several complaints about the same person then the manager would speak to them about it. And if they continued they would probably be asked to leave the gym and not come back.

I think it would have to go beyond just acting a bit odd to merit police involvement.

Honestly, the risk of a female perv leering or otherwise being nefarious in the community pool's shower room is just a calculated risk we live with and plan as well as we can to avoid or figure out how to deal with on the spot and hope for the best. They might exist somewhere undetected, tho.

The question is if males that are criminally obsessively into females might exist in higher numbers. Do you think that's possible?

Is it actually a calculated risk, or is it just something you give no thought to?
And shouldn't the risk of a male-bodied person leering be just another calculated risk as well then?

I think I have said before I just don't see it being anywhere like a significant issue. No doubt it will happen, but EVERYTHING happens once somewhere. And again, it's nothing to do with Self-ID, this situation is already the law here in the UK. Men can legally access women's lockerrooms if they are transgender.

 

[Matthew Best]

As Archie said the "self ID" involves living as your new gender for 2 years, having medical reports that you are suffering from BD and then having that checked by the government and then if you meet the criteria your gender is officially changed.

I don't know if my link was incorrect, but it said that it would only take three months living as the intended gender, and no medical reports.