House Impeachment Inquiry

[Skeptic Ginger]

Perhaps it is off-topic here in the "House Impeachment Inquiry" thread.

But having listened to just a little bit of today's House Impeachment Inquiry in the House of Representatives it certainly appears to be a hot topic by the GOP.

I guess that isn't enough reason to discuss the use it is being put to in the House Impeachment Inquiry here in the "House Impeachment Inquiry" thread, but it is unclear to me why it would be more appropriately placed in the 2020 candidates thread, as you suggest.

I could see it being appropriate there also, I suppose.

It's on topic to talk about the fake reason Trump wanted to have Zelensky publicly claim he was investigating Biden and Ukraine's interference in the 2016 election.

It's not on topic to go off on a sidetrack that there's some valid underlying technicality that makes J Biden at fault for the lie made up by Trump when Trump never once mentioned the technicality. Instead Trump only mentioned his fake accusation that J Biden was corrupt in getting the prosecutor fired. It is highly unlikely Trump knew anything about whether the investigation of Burisma was open or closed.

Fact: The fired prosecutor was not investigating Hunter and at no time had ever investigated Hunter.
Fact: Trump's accusation and early press reports falsely claimed the fired prosecutor was investigating Hunter.
Fact: An open but dormant investigation of the company which hired Hunter was not officially closed, despite the fact no one was investigating the company after Hunter was hired.

So what are we to do here? Because the dormant case was not officially closed, repeat the falsehood that the prosecutor was investigating Hunter or even Bursima when it wasn't?
Or repeat correctly that it was a falsehood the prosecutor was investigating Burisma when J Biden got him fired?

Should we discuss the fact Biden's job at Burisma was unseemly? Sure, but it is not relevant to this thread.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

A perfect example of intolerance of any other viewpoint and the desire to live in an echo chamber.

Attention! This stone-encrusted, double-decker Goodyear radial, served between toasted slices of sheet rock and with a side of slaw is actually the most delicious gourmet treat ever created (and one that all real nutritionists swear by). Everyone should consume them like ravenous piranhas. Also, try a refreshing, ice-cold Coke.

That’s my viewpoint. Equal to anyone else’s.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The Dems havea formal organizations for party members living overseas as well.
https://www.democratsabroad.org/

Surprised you did not know this.

Well, you know, there are only so many hours in the day and so many things one can learn about in those hours.

I do have my infectious disease practice that requires daily learning competing with my political interest and the book I'm writing is taking up a lot of research time.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It's fascinating watching the usual GOP talking heads trying to defend Trump. They're failing miserably.

ETA: I just saw Rick Santorum say that, even if Trump did hold up the Ukraine money in order to get them to investigate Biden, it's not wrong because he has that right. IE, it's OK for him to use tax payers' money for personal political gain. Unbelievable.
Is there NOTHING Trump can do that would get them to pull their heads out of his butt?

Unbelievable how many times they repeat it wasn't wrong because had the right to.

He did not have the right to.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Impeachment Tracker

Basically a spreadsheet with each witness called or announced organised by date of scheduled appearance with links to transcripts, where available, and any notes, such as subpoenas issued, and how cooperative they were.

That's a cool link.

 

[I Am The Scum]

REP. JIM JORDAN (R): Congress will never get a chance to question the one "who started it all."

Click the link to see Jim Jordan get dunked on in response

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

We really can't prove beyond reasonable doubt there was ZERO investigating going on. ....

Oh come on. I can't prove aliens weren't investigating Biden either.

You're better than this, kelly.

You made a mistake. Why are you wasting all this time pretending you didn't make one?

If you want to support your position, start here: Show us something indicating Trump knew the investigation of Burisma was open even though not being investigated and used that bit of knowledge when constructing his CT about Biden.

 

[kellyb]

Am I the only one paying attention to the news? Not talking about you guys so much but the reporters whose job it is to actually check on this stuff? I suppose the details are tricky.

The CNN link is fine, it was Nov 7th. But since then there was this:

USA: Mick Mulvaney asks to join lawsuit on congressional subpoena enforcement in Trump impeachment probe
Currently the Democrats withdrew the subpoena for Kupperman to reassess how they are going to present the case to the courts rather than risk a ruling that would have premature ramifications.


Bottom line, Bolton's subpoena and testimony are pending some procedural stuff aimed and getting a court ruling to overturn Trump's obstruction.

Thank you for putting all that together. I had not been following the subpeona(s) news all that closely.

Very good to hear that Trump's (probably?) not going to just get his way with the obstruction (again! JFC!).

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't think the Mueller investigation was even looking into that, were they?

What, you think it wouldn't have come up in all those months of investigating that it was Ukraine, not Russia as in Trump's fantasy?

...This was all very "out in the open" dealings at the time, reported in the widely read magazine FP, and was considered a total non-issue by republicans and democrats alike before right now. The Republicans might try to "throw shade" at the evidence the Ukranians gave the FBI (a ledger with Manafort's name on it in multiple places, iirc) but that's not going to go anywhere. "Using the Trump impeachment to actually exonerate Manafort" would probably not be a wise strategy for them to pursue beyond making conspiratorial-sounding implications. So, they're just going to keep trying to make Ukraine (and somehow thus Biden) look just fishy enough to where they hope it justifies in the mind of some skeptical republicans the "missiles-for-antiBiden headlines" deal as "legit foreign policy," and not the bribe/foreign contributions ban violation it is.

What? You actually think it's possible it was Ukraine and not Russia?

No way. When did you cross over to the dark side?

Good question, and I have no idea. The real "audience" here with this is small, (whoever those people in said audience are, which is not immediately obvious. Senate Republicans with a conscience, if they exist? The SCOTUS itself, etc?)

If this the Republicans' best stuff (and I think it might be) then I personally am enthusiastic about the upcoming debates I'll engage in, with "regular voters who are, or are potential impeachment agnostics" being my own intended audience, be they lurkers or active participants in discussion.

One thing that does matter is not repeating the GOP falsehood talking points.

 

[kellyb]

Oh come on. I can't prove aliens weren't investigating Biden either.

You're better than this, kelly.

You made a mistake. Why are you wasting all this time pretending you didn't make one?

If you want to support your position, start here: Show us something indicating Trump knew the investigation of Burisma was open even though not being investigated and used that bit of knowledge when constructing his CT about Biden.

I didn't make a mistake. If a prosecutor has an open investigation against someone, they are still technically "investigating" them. The person the case is open against can be described accurately as "under investigation." You know this, but are just being emo about it because of whatever reasons you have for being so invested in your preferred method of communicating with people. Or whatever. This is so, so dumb.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

This witch hunt is going to be disastrous for the Democratic party.

Is this Poe sarcasm?

Yes. The tell is that backwards Barlow did not reference the Democrat Party.

 

[kellyb]

There's plenty he could do.

Tax the rich. Believe in Global warming and take action against it. Stack the courts with non-partisan judges. Work with Democrats to make a better healthcare system... the list goes on. Do any of that and they would turn on him in a microsecond.

Yeah.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I didn't make a mistake. If a prosecutor has an open investigation against someone, they are still technically "investigating" them.

On open case and actively investigating are two different things.

Are all those 'open' cold cases in police storage technically being investigated?

And has Shokin ever investigated Hunter?

We're done here.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

The Dems havea formal organizations for party members living overseas as well.
https://www.democratsabroad.org/

My! How did that name get past Kirsten Gillibrand?

 

[kellyb]

What, you think it wouldn't have come up in all those months of investigating that it was Ukraine, not Russia as in Trump's fantasy?


What? You actually think it's possible it was Ukraine and not Russia?

No way. When did you cross over to the dark side?

One thing that does matter is not repeating the GOP falsehood talking points.

I can't tell what you're referring to when you use the word "it" here.

I'm feeling really confused. Can you clarify? What is "it"?

 

[Regnad Kcin]

REP. JIM JORDAN (R): Congress will never get a chance to question the one "who started it all."

Well, that’s a pleasant surprise. And here I’ve been thinking it was just Democrats who’ve been frustrated Trump won’t submit to questioning.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I can't tell what you're referring to when you use the word "it" here.

I'm feeling really confused. Can you clarify? What is "it"?

It as in who interfered in the 2016 election.

It was Russia.

It doesn't matter who Ukraine or any other county preferred. Only one country hacked the DNC's and Podesta's emails. Only one country passed that stuff on to Wikileaks.

Trump is still trying to cover that up. Claiming Ukraine, not Russia did it is one of his fantastical CTs.

 

[kellyb]

On open case and actively investigating are two different things.

Are all those 'open' cold cases in police storage technically being investigated?.

I never used the phrase "actively investigating", I just said "investigating."

The argument and train of thought demonstrated here, that you apparently want the Republicans to get, is that under the guy Joe Biden got fired, it was a "cold case", and ...

Eventually, Western officials, including then-Vice President Joe Biden, sought his ouster. Shortly after Shokin was fired, the case against Burisma was closed.

So, the investigation into the company Hunter Biden worked for looks like it might have gotten closed because Joe got the prosecutor fired. But that's a good thing because before THAT it was "just" apparently what you classify as a "cold case."

And somehow that means the best way to describe it all is by saying "Biden used his office to fire the prosecutor slow walking the investigation, not the prosecutor investigating Burisma."

YOU can feel free to use that line of argument with Republicans if you want to, but I really don't suggest it.

I'm going to keep just emphasizing that "There was an international consensus that Shokin needed to go, and Biden's apparent conflict of interest type situation violated no laws, for sure, so this attempt to turn the impeachment trial into a Biden trial is weaksauce unless anyone can come up with a theory of a law which was broken."

I always get crickets from Republicans after that.

But again, feel free to go on facebook or twitter or wherever you interact with republicans about this and try it your way. You do you, girl.

 

[kellyb]

It as in who interfered in the 2016 election.

It was Russia.

This isn't a situation where signs of interference were detected, and then the whole thing was some whodunnit mystery after that.

It doesn't matter who Ukraine or any other county preferred. Only one country hacked the DNC's and Podesta's emails. Only one country passed that stuff on to Wikileaks.

Trump is still trying to cover that up. Claiming Ukraine, not Russia did it is one of his fantastical CTs.

If you want to go back to trying to prove that Trump's covering up Russian collusion/conspiracy again, good luck.

You do you.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

OK kelly, the short version:

Is there such a thing as inactively investigating? I posted a grammar link for you. The suffix ing means actively happening when something else happens.

Did you miss the memo: Yahoo News: Anatomy of a conspiracy theory: The [DNC] 'server' Trump keeps looking for will never be found, because it doesn't exist

It’s the conspiracy theory that could bring down a presidency: the idea that an old Democratic National Committee email server is hidden somewhere in Ukraine and could rewrite the history of the 2016 election.

It's Trump who keeps trying to disprove Russia helped him get elected, not me.

I think that covers it.