Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

[Belz...]

The harmless men are all in the men's room.

 

[d4m10n]

What makes you think I haven't?

My mistake. What do you think they mean?

 

[Strawberry]

My mistake. What do you think they mean?

That being a woman is a feeling, or a set of feelings, inside a man's head.

 

[Rolfe]

The harmless men are all in the men's room. Pretty soon the safest option for women will be the men's room because all the pervs will be in the women's.

That's even possible to fit in a tweet. Well put.

 

[Sherkeu]

And all of those lots of times nobody has had any sensible answer to why being under the delusion that you're the opposite sex is any different from any of these other delusions that have been referred to.

I don't think that most of these cases of transwomen could be classified as 'delusions'. If they looked in the mirror at their male body and saw a female body, then it would be. But that isn't what happens (for the dysphoric ones, not the fetishist types)

Science has shown it can manipulate gender differences in rodents and there are several paths that can make it happen. The male genitals are triggered early in fetal development while the male neural pathways happen later in pregnancy. If, at this later stage, you take out the precursor protein (kisspeptin) that triggers testosterone, or the receptors for that protein arent working (or are not sensitive), you will not get 'male differentiation" in the brain. So you end up with a "male body" and a "female brain". The male is the sex that needs things 'added' so I think this is why is is more prevalent. More can go wrong.

Researchers have only just begun to do fMRI on the developing fetus to find more on how/why/where this happens. (Until recently, methods of scanning could not correct for fetal movement- even the mothers breathing affected it.) Brain scans on those who have socially transitioned arent very reliable since gender differentiation in a brain can also be caused simply by the act of social transitioning, even without any medical intervention. Plasticity is an amazing thing.

I think that the plasticity of a child brain causes the disparity between outcomes in studies- those who continue transition, and those whose dysphoria corrects after going through puberty. The very act of puberty may correct it. The 'prescription' of social transition and puberty blockers, while lessening dysphoria at that time, means the correction won't get a chance to happen.

So you let them go through puberty, no social transition, a significant percent of the boys/young men will be ok with their body- maybe not 'cis' but not dysphoric. For the rest though, they now have a more masculinized body that makes the rest of their life much harder. A true dilemma! A precise and early diagnosis seems key.
But that is probably for another thread.

eta: I can go find links for these studies if anyone is interested in them.
Here's one on kisspeptin.

And one with a decent overview of the knowns and unknowns:
Neurobiology of gender identity and sexual orientation

 

[Meadmaker]

I don't think that most of these cases of transwomen could be classified as 'delusions'. If they looked in the mirror at their male body and saw a female body, then it would be. But that isn't what happens (for the dysphoric ones, not the fetishist types)

Science has shown it can manipulate gender differences in rodents and there are several paths that can make it happen. The male genitals are triggered early in fetal development while the male neural pathways happen later in pregnancy. If, at this later stage, you take out the precursor protein (kisspeptin) that triggers testosterone, or the receptors for that protein arent working (or are not sensitive), you will not get 'male differentiation" in the brain. So you end up with a "male body" and a "female brain". The male is the sex that needs things 'added' so I think this is why is is more prevalent. More can go wrong.

Researchers have only just begun to do fMRI on the developing fetus to find more on how/why/where this happens. (Until recently, methods of scanning could not correct for fetal movement- even the mothers breathing affected it.) Brain scans on those who have socially transitioned arent very reliable since gender differentiation in a brain can also be caused simply by the act of social transitioning, even without any medical intervention. Plasticity is an amazing thing.

I think that the plasticity of a child brain causes the disparity between outcomes in studies- those who continue transition, and those whose dysphoria corrects after going through puberty. The very act of puberty may correct it. The 'prescription' of social transition and puberty blockers, while lessening dysphoria at that time, means the correction won't get a chance to happen.

So you let them go through puberty, no social transition, a significant percent of the boys/young men will be ok with their body- maybe not 'cis' but not dysphoric. For the rest though, they now have a more masculinized body that makes the rest of their life much harder. A true dilemma! A precise and early diagnosis seems key.
But that is probably for another thread.

eta: I can go find links for these studies if anyone is interested in them.
Here's one on kisspeptin.

And one with a decent overview of the knowns and unknowns:
Neurobiology of gender identity and sexual orientation

Thanks for posting that. Very informative.

Even though I made one of the "Napoleon" posts, I don't think "delusional" is the right word to describe most transgenders. I think most of them are aware of what's real. However, even if their gender dysphoria is real, and has an organic cause, and is incurable, that doesn't make them "really" the opposite sex.

And, some really are delusional, and then you get the real extremes like that Yaniv fellow from Canada. I don't know what to say about him, but whatever it is, it isn't very nice.

 

[Meadmaker]

the question is why don't you care if he is black or not, but you do care that he is man or woman?

I don't think it matters if its a restroom, locker room, or wherever.

Because if he is black or not, that would mean.....well, I can't think of what it would mean, really. He would...……...be black.

On the other hand, if he were a man, that would mean he would have a penis that could be inserted into a vagina, and all the people I know that have vaginas seem to think that's significant.

It goes back to that question I asked a few days ago. If we redefine "boys", what do we call the set of all teenagers that can make my daughter pregnant? In other words, it's not just a semantic question. There are real, functional, differences, whether you ignore them or not.

And it goes to what Roborama was saying. If we have a reason to segregate the boys from the girls, then those reasons are a result of their biological sex, not a result of their self-identified gender.

 

[Meadmaker]

I think those who claim there's no such thing as autgynaephilia should read this.

https://culturallyboundgender.wordp...nchard-and-trans-activists-both-get-it-wrong/

(I don't think the writer fully understand's Blanchard's hypothesis, because none of what she declares to be "wrong" about that is actually what he is saying.)

Now I don't want any of these creeps and perverts within spitting distance of any female single-sex space. Now if anyone wants to put forward a proposal as to how that could be achieved while at the same time allowing the friendly and protective transwomen access as of right, that would be interesting. But the current proposal for "anyone who says he is a woman is a woman" is absolutely insupportable and is in itself the cause of a backlash against transwomen who are of a more acceptable disposition.

I think there's plenty of room for debate about the prevalence of autogynephilia and its role in certain transgender MtF people, but the idea that it doesn't even exist is completely unsustainable.

 

[Roboramma]

I have to disagree there. Someone who claims to be a Muslim but doesn't believe in God and drinks and eats pork regularily would justifiably be dismissed as not the thing he'd claim to be. There are still objective/observable characteristic to even those categories.

One of my best friends drinks and eats pork, but is a Muslim. He fits the first criterion though. When we were having dinner with another Muslim friend, the other friend jokingly said to him "you aren't a Muslim", which really offended him.

"Yes, I am a Muslim."
"How was Ramadan this year?"
"Not so good..."
"..."
He then quoted some verse from the Koran, which I think meant "Anyone who accepts Allah is a muslim" (he said it in arabic, so I'm going based on context, but he's mentioned the same thing to me before).

Our other friend had no reply to that and just said, "Yes, you are right, I'm just joking with you, of course you are a Muslim."

 

[Roboramma]

The harmless men are all in the men's room. Pretty soon the safest option for women will be the men's room because all the pervs will be in the women's.

That's even possible to fit in a tweet. Well put.

I don't think that there's actually evidence that it's true, though. Didn't someone just quote a stat saying that the rate of violent crime among transwomen is the same as among the general male population?

If that's true, then the above is not.

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't think that there's actually evidence that it's true, though. Didn't someone just quote a stat saying that the rate of violent crime among transwomen is the same as among the general male population?

If that's true, then the above is not.

I think the point is that if you allow unrestricted access to women's locker rooms based only on self-declaration and nothing more, then the pervs are going to start exploiting that. You'll get false "transwomen" who only adopt that label temporarily in order to act pervy. So the past statistics won't be applicable in such an environment.

 

[kellyb]

We do not know which males are dangerous and which not. They do not come with "rapist" or "voyeur" or pederast" tatooed on their foreheads. It is not possible to tell based on what they are wearing. There's nothing, until they do something, and then it's too late.

If males are barred by law and custom from entering these spaces, experience has taught us one thing. The harmless, decent guys don't go in. If they do it's by accident and they rapidly reverse out with profuse apologies. So we know immediately who is potential trouble, and more importantly they have no right to be there. We can ask them to leave. We can call the management. We can beat a hasty retreat while we still can, and perhaps call the cops. This is as safe as we can reasonably achieve.

If however males are not barred by law and custom, this ability to police our space breaks down. First, we can't identify who should be regarded as potential trouble. We don't know this isn't Archie Gemmell Goal, all-round good guy, until he's made his move, and by then it will be too late. And second, we can't meaningfully police the space. If we're a bit suspicious we can't ask him to leave, or call the management. The best we can do is get the hell out as fast as we can. And forget calling the police, unless we want to be charged with a hate crime.

This space is no longer safe

This basically adds up to women self-excluding from their own spaces. Women watching to see if the coast is clear before they can go in for a pee. Women pairing up and agreeing to stand guard for each other while they go and fix their make-up. Nice sort of utopia this. If you're a man who likes being near women with their knickers down, I suppose.

It seems/sounds to me like it's probably mostly a false sense of security that system of bathroom policing gives, but I could of course be completely wrong.

My assumption has always been that an aspiring bathroom rapist is likely to sneak in and hide in a stall and then emerge to do or attempt to do whatever. (And the LAST thing such a rapist would do is dress like a woman when going into the store and sneaking into the bathroom to execute a rape, because males in dresses tend to stick out a tad.)

Where I feel most nervous about using the restroom is somewhere like a 24 hour megamart bathroom, late at night when nobody's likely to be around. And the national parks and forests campground bathrooms late at night, or any time when the camground is less than full, so it would be "safe" for a rapist or serial killer or whatever to make their move there.

The liklihood of getting raped or flashed or assaulted in any way in a bathroom in my mind completely hinges on the presence of other people within shouting distance. The fewer the people, the greater the likelihood.

I guess I kind of base my thinking here on the child abduction worries my parent's generation had in the 80's, which still sort of exists. People in well-populated neighborhoods were scared to death and feeling like people were snatching kids out of children's front yards or off the sidewalk next door, and wanting to move away to somewhere more in the middle of nowhere to be safe....but really, almost all "stranger" child abductions were happening out in the country, in the rural areas!

Which makes total sense. In a dense neighborhood, there are always eyes and ears, constantly watching, and listening to the outdoors. The monsters went out to the boonies to find kids in places where no one could hear them scream.

 

[kellyb]

I don't think it matters if its a restroom, locker room, or wherever.

There's a huge difference between a restroom and a locker room. Nobody sees anything on anybody ever, ever, ever in the woman's bathroom.

People do undress by each other in locker rooms, and nudity is a whole 'nother ball of wax in NUMEROUS ways.

Locker rooms should be cis exclusive and sex segregated. In school, I always went to the restroom to change in and out of gym clothes. Being around other people naked (regardless of sex or gender) is just not for me. Trans people can (and I guess usually do) do that.



This is a normal part of child development. There's a natural, extremely intense "age of modesty" that kicks in around ages 5-6 usually, it can last indefinitely, and it needs to be respected:

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2000-feb-28-cl-3383-story.html

There was no precise moment. Kathleen Matulich just remembers that her 6-year-old son began carefully bolting the bathroom door of their Santa Monica home behind him and began turning his back to her when he got dressed.

“He actually started saying, ‘I want my privacy,’ ” recalls Matulich, 45. “When he discovered his private parts, my private parts became private parts. I stopped being naked around him. I just followed his lead.”

https://extension.psu.edu/programs/...ildren-and-youth-their-growth-and-development

The 7-year-oldis active
likes to know rules
sees teacher as authority
worries about being liked
complains of unfair treatment by playmates
listens as well as talks at mealtime
enjoys activities alone as well as with others
can relate evenly to brothers and sisters, but this depends on age (the closer in age, the more fights)
is very sensitive to reactions of others
wants to do things right—erases and tries again and again
sees the end result as more important than the "route"
begins to enjoy reading as a pastime if he or she has had success in this skill
begins to show politeness and consideration; less opinionated and stubborn
begins to be modest and concerned about "private parts" or sexual organsshows friendship by possessions, secrets, and time together

https://www.rileychildrens.org/health-info/growth-development-6-11-years

The ninth mission of middle childhood is to accept one’s own physical appearance, body build and athletic abilities. If there are two children in this age group in one room, they will be comparing themselves to each other, sure of their own personal defects and bodily abnormalities. The concern school-age children have about their bodies results in extreme modesty, refused invitations to social events like swimming parties, and a great deal of worrying about required showers after physical education classes.

Even the most nudity-loving isolated remaining tribes have something of a "loin cloth" they generally wear.

I'm not sure kids should ever be "nudged to the point of forced" to be naked around people of the same sex. Making children (or adults) with different sex organs be naked around each other is doubly messed up.

 

[kellyb]

The social construct is femininity. Woman describes purely the biological reality,.

The meanings of words are social constructs. (seriously, if we agree that "A social construct is something that exists not in objective reality, but as a result of human interaction. It exists because humans agree that it exists.") LOL

Femininity and masculinity as partially biological, too.

See: http://www.psy.fau.edu/iclab/pdfs/2012-Alexander-Wilcox-Sex-differences-in-early-infancy.pdf

Through these effects on complex biological processes, androgen levels during critical periods in early development are thought to contribute to the between- and within-sex variability in human social and cognitive behavior.

Evidence from research on older children and adults supports the masculinizing effects of prenatal testosterone on social and cognitive behavior (such as empathy, aggression, play styles and toy preferences, and spatial abilities; Collaer & Hines, 1995; Hines, 2010)

This is still called a hypothesis, but it's basically a fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizational-Activational_Hypothesis

The Organizational-Activational Hypothesis states that steroid hormones permanently organize the nervous system during early development, which is reflected in adult male or female typical behaviors.[1] In adulthood, the same steroid hormones activate, modulate, and inhibit these behaviors. [2] This idea was revolutionary when first published in 1959 because no other previous experiment had demonstrated that adult behaviors could be determined hormonally during early development.

 

[Sherkeu]

Even the most nudity-loving isolated remaining tribes have something of a "loin cloth" they generally wear.

I'm not sure kids should ever be "nudged to the point of forced" to be naked around people of the same sex. Making children (or adults) with different sex organs be naked around each other is doubly messed up.

That made me wonder about what they have done at the Korean spas where there are many naked kids. ???
Traditional Korean spas are all ages but strictly gender segregated and it is mandatory to be nude in the segregated spaces. There is a whole process of showering and scrubbing before you can go in the pools. It's all communal. Last time I went to one, there were mostly grandmothers with young girls there for the day. Korean spas are multi-generational family affairs. (at least on the women's side)

Spas were being reported/sued/threatened for refusing lawful entry or segregating by genitals only. They MUST allow anyone whose gender says Female on their I.D. into the all-women naked spaces. The FtM's of the more exhibitionist style have shown up, and the women are not happy.

 

[Roboramma]

I think the point is that if you allow unrestricted access to women's locker rooms based only on self-declaration and nothing more, then the pervs are going to start exploiting that. You'll get false "transwomen" who only adopt that label temporarily in order to act pervy. So the past statistics won't be applicable in such an environment.

Thanks, yeah I can see that could be a valid consideration.

 

[Lithrael]

I agree with KellyB’s take on that. I’ll always be more wary in an empty public restroom than in one with a bunch of trans women.

Also agree that the vast majority of actual predatory pervs understand that looking like a trans person draws more attention, not less. And they want less attention.

 

[Roboramma]

I agree with Strawberry’s take on that. I’ll always be more wary in an empty public restroom than in one with a bunch of trans women.

Also agree that the vast majority of actual predatory pervs understand that looking like a trans person draws more attention, not less. And they want less attention.

Yeah, I also agree with this, for the time being.

I think that if trans continues to become more accepted and mainstream, though, you might see more transwomen who dress in less gendered clothing. T-shirt and jeans, short hair, clean shaved male-bodied person enters the female restroom. Perhaps that will just be seen as normal.

The idea is that, if that person is trans, and there's no reason to think she isn't, then that's fine. But in that sort of case it does become more difficult to differentiate between transwomen wanting to use the female restroom, and cismen wanting to do so.

 

[Lithrael]

As far as the sauna, yeah I can see where that’s gonna be contentious. Personally I’d come down to the rule as junk side/no junk side, for reasons of both young kid modesty and the kind of stuff Meadmaker’s discussing. Sucks to be the person with both junk and top work, but it’s one of the situations where somebody has to end up as the odd person out.

 

[kellyb]

I think that if trans continues to become more accepted and mainstream, though, you might see more transwomen who dress in less gendered clothing. T-shirt and jeans, short hair, clean shaved male-bodied person enters the female restroom. Perhaps that will just be seen as normal.

All the transwomen I know always wear something very "woman-gendered" in public so they're never misperceived as a cisman.

It seems/sounds like the final phase of deciding you're a transwoman and want or need to do and be feminine 24/7 always and forever, is brutal, because there's a long "coming out" process to do after years of what they feel was LARPing as a cisman part time out of necessity (jobs, haven't come out to parents yet, not quite ready to get friend-dumped by one or more of your oldest and closest friends who you know will never accept you on any level ever again, etc), and it was totally fraudulent when they'd be in man clothes, and they don't ever want to feel like a fake cisman ever again. But really, their entire wardrobe is always far more feminine-specific than, say, mine. They just have no interest in buying clothes that would be totally normal for a guy to wear. And with makeup, they're often kind of like 1950's women who felt like it was "improper" to be seen "without their face on".

My guess would be if they somehow found themselves completely without any way of signaling "transwoman" while needing to pee and out in public, they'd probably just go ahead and use the dude's bathroom, since everyone who looks at them is thinking they're looking at a cisman anyway. And being perceived as "some random dude" in the women's bathroom for apparently no reason would scare the bejeezus out of any other woman in there, including me. I'm pretty sure most transwomen themselves would be freaked out if there was some apparent cisman in the women's bathroom for apparently no reason other than...I dunno...being a weirdo. Super awkward, in a best case scenario, for all involved. Cops might get called. Boyfriends right outside who like beating the crap out of pervs might be notified. Bad idea all around.