Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

You kind of have to show the fact is written to denigrate transpeople before the equals doubly line thingy

The barrier to transphobia is so high with some people that nothing would ever convince them.

It's not unusual. It's the same on a number of topics. As I said before, I can't make 'you' care. I can only point out what 'you' are doing.

 

[cullennz]

Right so let's see if the usual suspects jump on the circularity here as they would with ANY other definition. I'm not going to hold my breath.

Seems a reasonable definition tbf given it pretty much matches Cambridge and Osford's


Feel free to write another.

 

[cullennz]

The barrier to transphobia is so high with some people that nothing would ever convince them.

It's not unusual. It's the same on a number of topics. As I said before, I can't make 'you' care. I can only point out what 'you' are doing.

Not sure what you think I am doing.

I just tend to agree a dude can't become a female by thought.

 

[caveman1917]

I wouldn't hold my breath, there hasn't even been a sensible definition of "woman" that would make the thread title anything other than trivially true, and we're already two iterations into the discussion.

Woman, adult human female.

I think you misunderstood the highlighted bit of my post. Your definition makes the thread title "Transwomen are not women" trivially true. I was talking about the people who claim the thread title is false (ie claim that transwomen are women) not having been able to give any definition of "woman" that would support their claim.

 

[kellyb]

And all of those lots of times nobody has had any sensible answer to why being under the delusion that you're the opposite sex is any different from any of these other delusions that have been referred to.

They're not under the delusion that they're literally members of the opposite biological sex. It really positively isn't like napoleon delusions in that regard at all. There are no transwomen out there who really believe they need to take birth control pills to keep themselves from becoming pregnant. That's the sort of related belief you'd see in an actual delusion.

There is a good scientific reason shrinks aren't prescribing inpatient treatment and antipsychotics to transpeople. It's not all just political campaigns and smear tactics and bullying-behavior academic pressure, although those things do exist, and are of course awful.

I really wish the intelligent and moral people on both "sides" here would care more about scientific truth as well as the most universally compassionate stance on this stuff. Currently I see both the "gender critical feminist" crowd AND the "radical trans rights activist" crowd caring more about cheerleading for their respective teams than about the real scientific truth of these matters so they can be dealt with ethically from a strong and solidly fact and reality-based perspective.

 

[kellyb]

I think you misunderstood the highlighted bit of my post. Your definition makes the thread title "Transwomen are not women" trivially true. I was talking about the people who claim the thread title is false (ie claim that transwomen are women) not having been able to give any definition of "woman" that would support their claim.

Most people saying "transwomen are women" are defining the word "woman" in a way outside of the dictionary definition of the word, and are using it to describe the "gender not sex" social space aspect of being "feminine," and you know that. We've been over all this before.

 

[cullennz]

I think you misunderstood the highlighted bit of my post. Your definition makes the thread title "Transwomen are not women" trivially true. I was talking about the people who claim the thread title is false (ie claim that transwomen are women) not having been able to give any definition of "woman" that would support their claim.

Personally think the claim transwomen are women is onus on you because that is the claim.

If you want to give a definition of a woman go for broke

 

[cullennz]

Most people saying "transwomen are women" are defining the word "woman" in a way outside of the dictionary definition of the word, and are using it to describe the "gender not sex" social space aspect of being "feminine," and you know that. We've been over all this before.

Indeed

Gender - What you should have been thought wise

Sex - What you are biologically


Which is where I thought we were at at the mo'

They will end up more and more mixed up at a guess as activists tend to get more oxygen than deserved and like screwing the english language

 

[Rolfe]

Right so let's see if the usual suspects jump on the circularity here as they would with ANY other definition. I'm not going to hold my breath.

Nice cherry-picking. You snipped the explanation below which defined the female pathway of development.

 

[Rolfe]

I don't think this is the argument at all because there is a pattern of throwing **** and seeing what sticks that seems to say that if not all then a sizeable proportion of transwomen fit this description of AGP.

But even if it were how is this any different than arguing that 'not all gay men are paedophiles but we need to treat them as if they are a paedo risk' 'not all black men are murderers but we need to treat them as if they are a murder risk' 'not all Mexicans are rapists but we need to treat them as if they are a rape risk'?

A sizeable proportion of transwomen do fit the description of AGP. That is trivially true.

Women (read, not all women but most women who actually realise what is going on here) do not want men who get off on the whole idea of being included within "womanhood" in their single-sex spaces. Get over it.

You know, it would be nice if you tried to argue this without the constant implication that anyone who disagrees with you is guilty of some sort of moral turpitude.

 

[Rolfe]

I think you misunderstood the highlighted bit of my post. Your definition makes the thread title "Transwomen are not women" trivially true. I was talking about the people who claim the thread title is false (ie claim that transwomen are women) not having been able to give any definition of "woman" that would support their claim.

I was just reiterating the biological definition of woman, in case anyone had missed it.

 

[cullennz]

This is probably dim but I think that we need to establish the difference between the words "women" and "female"

Of which I am guilty of cocking up

To me, at least woman is now a gender thing. Sweet dude thinks he should have been one, call her she.

Female. Chick (put that to annoy people) biologically female.

Rolfe's worries about losing their rights

Get it

 

[Belz...]

If your counter argument is just 'no it isn't' then we aren't going to get very far really are we.

Well, when the problem is one of definitions, discussion can't go very far indeed, and here you're using either a very broad definition of transphobia, or interpreting Rolfe's posts uncharitably in order to fit them into that definition.

It's odd that you claim 'that's not what she said' repeatedly when I quoted the very parts where she said it.

No, you didn't, Archie. You are _adding_ information and interpretation over her words and then claiming that that's what she posted.

But even with your denial here you still agree with me on at least a couple of items of transphobia AND that she attributed these views to all women at least once.

And now you're doing it to me! I gave you three of your points, sure. I specifically did NOT give you that she attributed these views to all women, however. She's also clarified the 'asylum' bit so I have to take that one away from you now.

So can we stop pretending that she didn't?

And there you go again, using language to make something appear as something else. "Pretending", as if I'm playing some sort of game.

If you have trouble identifying transphobia then try this.

No, how about you try addressing my responses to your post rather than try to handwave them en masse?

 

[Rolfe]

To me, at least woman is now a gender thing. Sweet dude thinks he should have been one, call her she. ...

Rolfe's worries about losing their rights.

Which includes losing our language. Woman means adult human female and if you want it to mean something else you're going to have to go through a large number of very angry women adult human females. (I mean, seriously, if you appropriate the word "women" to mean something else, what do we call ourselves? Just stoppit.)

Someone on twitter has been researching a lot of historical anti-sufragette literature and the sheer hate and bile-flecked invective hurled at these women is astoundingly similar to the stuff being thrown at "terfs" now by the trans lobby.

I never imagined that 100 years on from winning that one we'd have to do it all again, but it sure looks that way.

 

[caveman1917]

Most people saying "transwomen are women" are defining the word "woman" in a way outside of the dictionary definition of the word, and are using it to describe the "gender not sex" social space aspect of being "feminine," and you know that. We've been over all this before.

Yes, we've been over all this before, and nobody of the "transwomen are women" crowd has been able to provide a proper definition of "woman" so that their claim would be true - as I was talking to Rolfe about. So until they manage to do so, I'll keep considering their claims for what they are, incoherent rambling. Just because people have been rambling incoherently for a lot of time doesn't suddenly make their claims coherent, let alone true.

"I've rambled incoherently before, therefor my claims are now coherent!"

 

[cullennz]

Which includes losing our language. Woman means adult human female and if you want it to mean something else you're going to have to go through a large number of very angry women adult human females. (I mean, seriously, if you appropriate the word "women" to mean something else, what do we call ourselves? Just stoppit.)

Someone on twitter has been researching a lot of historical anti-sufragette literature and the sheer hate and bile-flecked invective hurled at these women is astoundingly similar to the stuff being thrown at "terfs" now by the trans lobby.

I never imagined that 100 years on from winning that one we'd have to do it all again, but it sure looks that way.

Just as a personal piece of advice.

I would, if were you suck up the loss of the term "women" and hang out big time for "female", cos I think you might be onto a bit of a loser with the uber inclusive crowd

 

[kellyb]

This is probably dim but I think that we need to establish the difference between the words "women" and "female"

Of which I am guilty of cocking up

To me, at least woman is now a gender thing. Sweet dude thinks he should have been one, call her she.

Female. Chick (put that to annoy people) biologically female.

Rolfe's worries about losing their rights

The argument against using the words like that, is that now there's no word for "adult human female", unless we want to create/use the new-ish word, "ciswomen", but a whole lot of "adult human female" type women, especially it seems older ones who were present for the hardest battles for more equal rights for women, really resent having the very word "woman" taken away from them, by fiat, by people who are usually either biological males, or men of some sort, or by relative children.

It feels audacious to me as a 41 year old to tell a 60 or 70 year old feminist "You are no longer called a woman, if you're referring to anything biological males can't also be, too. The word woman now specifically does NOT mean a majority of the things it meant for your whole, long, feminist lives, and it does not any longer mean having the common female anatomy and distinctly sex-specific traits and customs of necessity which are exclusive according to nature itself to biological females. You now have to call yourself a "ciswoman" if a uterus, or a baby living for a year or more off milk you alone produce, or any of that stuff is the type of woman or aspect of womanhood you're talking about. If you don't like it, get over yourselves."

So, I'm going to let other people use the words woman and ciswoman however they see fit, and give them no grief about it, as long as they don't pretend to not even be aware of the fact that there are two distinct and different definitions of the word woman (reflecting two distinct concepts, one of which is crystal clear, and the other one which is as hazy as a ghost, to be completely honest) now in use.

 

[Rolfe]

Just as a personal piece of advice.

I would, if were you suck up the loss of the term "women" and hang out big time for "female", cos I think you might be onto a bit of a loser with the uber inclusive crowd

Absolutely no chance whatsoever of women "sucking up" the loss of the word that has described us since we had this language. Although thanks for the advice.

 

[Rolfe]

The argument against using the words like that, is that now there's no word for "adult human female", unless we want to create/use the new-ish word, "ciswomen", but a whole lot of "adult human female" type women, especially it seems older ones who were present for the hardest battles for more equal rights for women, really resent having the very word "woman" taken away from them, by fiat, by people who are usually either biological males, or men of some sort, or by relative children.

It feels audacious to me as a 41 year old to tell a 60 or 70 year old feminist "You are no longer called a woman, if you're referring to anything biological males can't also be, too. The word woman now specifically does NOT mean a majority of the things it meant for your whole, long, feminist lives, and it does not any longer mean having the common female anatomy and distinctly sex-specific traits and customs of necessity which are exclusive according to nature itself to biological females. You now have to call yourself a "ciswoman" if a uterus, or a baby living for a year or more off milk you alone produce, or any of that stuff is the type of woman or aspect of womanhood you're talking about. If you don't like it, get over yourselves."

So, I'm going to let other people use the words woman and ciswoman however they see fit, and give them no grief about it, as long as they don't pretend to not even be aware of the fact that there are two distinct and different definitions of the word woman (reflecting two distinct concepts, one of which is crystal clear, and the other one which is as hazy as a ghost, to be completely honest) now in use.

Thank you, that was very well put. Also, a huge number of women (I'm apparently not allowed just to say "women") find the term "ciswoman" grossly offensive, so there's that too.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

A sizeable proportion of transwomen do fit the description of AGP. That is trivially true.

Your opinion. But at least you have stated it so let's give up the pretense that you are OK with transwomen but just not the small proportion that are something else.

Women (read, not all women but most women who actually realise what is going on here) do not want men who get off on the whole idea of being included within "womanhood" in their single-sex spaces. Get over it.

Assertion without evidence. And even if true, since when did 'most people don't like it' become the trump card argument for ANYTHING?

You know, it would be nice if you tried to argue this without the constant implication that anyone who disagrees with you is guilty of some sort of moral turpitude.

If they are then I will state it. It would surely be nicer for you if people didn't call out what they see as transphobia, no doubt racists would prefer it if people didn't call them racists too. 'Implying moral turpitude' is rather ironic anyway given your posts and thoughts on transpeople.