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Interaction between body and soul

No reduction of synapse activity during claimed out of body experiences
That depends on how much synapse activity there would be without a soul's meddling in the brain.

You are suggesting the paranormal concept of the "soul" isn't that connected with the inputs received and thought patterns undertaken by the real physical brain. That sort of downgrades the "soul" to something like a disconnected blind earthworm parasite and people should want to get rid of it. :D

Well considering "souls" don't have DNA nor environments to allow them to evolve, are you suggesting "souls" may be as primitive as a blind earthworm? That makes sense, as there is no evidence suggesting "souls" can do anything an earthworm can't. :p
 
Do you keep track of all the particles in your brain?
Robin that doesn't seem to follow the discussion? We are talking about what we know. We have a theory which is backed up by plenty of experimental data, if particles started turning up in places in that the theory didn't predicts we'd know about it.
 
How?



Say I have a simulation of a hundred particles, all moving around according to a physical law, say moving at delta t * v and colliding with momentum conserved.



I take ten of those particles and I nudge them a little to get an outcome I want.



Do you think you could tell which ones were nudged and which were just behaving according to physics? I can post a video of an example if you like and you tell me which are moving according to the general law and which ones have been nudged. You can't, or only if I make the movement really obvious.



And that is only one hundred particles that you can keep track of on screen and run the video back and forth as much as you like.



So you are telling me that if you were a simulation you could tell which particles in your brain the programmers had nudged?
Ah, better understand your point. But that's all a grand idea, but where is the evidence that it describes our reality. Otherwise you you are really saying no more than Belz.... ridiculous idea that fairies move the particles (everyone knows it is tiny imps).
 
No reduction of synapse activity during claimed out of body experiences

You are suggesting the paranormal concept of the "soul" isn't that connected with the inputs received and thought patterns undertaken by the real physical brain. That sort of downgrades the "soul" to something like a disconnected blind earthworm parasite and people should want to get rid of it. :D

I don't know whether the withdrawal of a soul from the brain would necessarily reduce overall activity of the brain. The soul may just modify brain activity as it interacts with the brain. The brain itself is fueled by blood flow and oxygen.

Well considering "souls" don't have DNA nor environments to allow them to evolve, are you suggesting "souls" may be as primitive as a blind earthworm? That makes sense, as there is no evidence suggesting "souls" can do anything an earthworm can't. :p

I don't know whether souls have something analogous to DNA which they could pass on to offspring. But if they exist they must have some properties and exist in some environment, so they could potentially accumulate changes in themselves and evolve in this sense.
 
If something goes wrong with, say, the central vestibular system, it's not like there's a light that flashes in the cognitive layer saying, "GIMBAL LOCK."

I don't need to hear the obvious, I've got the frappin' 8-ball right in front of me!


Seriously, it would be so much cooler if we got status reports like from a computer.
 
Robin that doesn't seem to follow the discussion? We are talking about what we know. We have a theory which is backed up by plenty of experimental data, if particles started turning up in places in that the theory didn't predicts we'd know about it.

I think Robin is saying that we're talking about stuff such a fine detail that could, in principle, go unnoticed.

If I stole a grain of salt out of your salt shaker, you'd never realize it was missing.
 
I don't know whether souls have something analogous to DNA which they could pass on to offspring. But if they exist they must have some properties and exist in some environment, so they could potentially accumulate changes in themselves and evolve in this sense.
You could say that about anything you imagine might possibly exist.

For example: I don't know whether fairies exist or have something analogous to offspring, but if they exist, they must have some properties and exist in some environment, so they could potential accumulate changes in themselves and evolve in this sense.

Is that a sentence worth taking seriously? Replace fairies with wizards, demons, djinns, etc. Do you have anything to back up your theory other than the vaguest of notions about how it might possibly work if it possibly existed? Why should any of this be taken seriously at all when you've really not made any attempt to back it up with anything other than fanciful speculation of the vaguest kind?
 
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It's one of those religiousy sounding things that one can't really prove or disprove that gives Atheists a chance to pontificate.
 
You could say that about anything you imagine might possibly exist.

Indeed, for seven pages and counting people have been pointing out that all of this is nothing but an ever-shifting circus of speculation and circular reasoning. The empirical data don't fit the hypothesis? Just imagine that the data are "really" more favorable. Standard Model not allow for your proposal? Just imagine extending it so that it does. Plot holes in your proposal? Just speculate that there must be suitable unknowns that you declare will work out in your favor.

Nobody gives a standing ovation for that. It takes zero effort to just idly conjure up an imaginary world in which some desired idea can make sense.

Replace fairies with wizards, demons, djinns, etc.

And this is a common rebuttal pattern. We try to show the parallels to other mythical concepts. We make up works that have no intrinsic meaning and point out that the same logic "validates" those too. We attempt reductio ad absurdum with notions like invisible elves or transvestite space cows. And it never works because the claimant has generally strongly normalized to his pet idea and disagrees with the premise of the rebuttal: "That may be the case for your MacGuffins, but a soul is reasonably well-accepted concept. Therefore my speculation is reasonable."

Oh, but is it?

A Mormon, a Hindu, and an atheist walk into a bar have a near-death out-of-body experience. Each of them says, "I felt like I was floating above my body." The spiritualists propose that we should take all those accounts at face value, and our claimant suggests further that each account should be construed as if the patient actually believed the alluded-to animism. Let's grant that, arguendo.

The Mormon and the Hindu will each have a fairly concrete, fairly well-developed notion of a soul. So it's tempting to say that the Mormon believes in a soul and so it's reasonable to suggest that he is literally saying his soul left his body. Ditto the Hindu. Except that the Mormon concept of the soul and the Hindu concept of the soul are as utterly incompatible as they can be, as are the respective concepts of the afterlife in each belief tradition. Both traditions can't simultaneously be true, so either the Mormon or the Hindu is mistaken, or perhaps both. And even an atheist who rejects the concept of gods may still want to keep his mind open to the notion that something as-yet uncharacterized in the natural world could be a seat of consciousness aside from the organism.

The point is that once you start talking about actual constructions of the soul, you can't escape the contradictions in particular formulations -- they can't all be true, yet many are believed. You can't escape the contradictions by softening the construction to the point where it says nothing about which we can ask questions and get answers. You can't fix it by flitting ad hoc between different traditions of belief.

Even a hard-core skeptic might accept a definition of "soul" as an abstract label for cognitive behaviors and factors that affect well-being, even if nothing he intends by it transcends the organism. I have no problem saying that a hike in the mountains "is good for my soul" without intending that to mean some supernatural entity that's going to try to flee the scene of the crime if I have a heart attack.

So no, the concept of a soul is not well enough nailed down or commonly enough construed that animist proposals escape all the various analogizing and reductionist rebuttals.
 
Yes, you can measure the effect but the problem is how to trace its origins. fMRI has spatial resoultion on the scale of millimeters, EEG even worse. That was my point.
And that means your idea of a soul is at the level of atoms and molecules, we examine synapses to that scale. Plus of course the soul if it exists has to be made of the same "stuff" as everything else so if it existed we could even with current technology not only detect it but be able to examine it. Yet there is no evidence of something like a soul existing.
 
I don't know whether souls have something analogous to DNA which they could pass on to offspring. But if they exist they must have some properties and exist in some environment, so they could potentially accumulate changes in themselves and evolve in this sense.

Well it is obvious "souls" can't evolve as they don't have any sensory receiving devices to interact with the normal environment.

"Souls" travel through skull bones, so they obviously don't interact with normal physical things and thus can't hear sound waves in air.

"Souls" don't have evolved cones and rods, or any eye, that can receive electromagnetic wave form data (visible light), so souls are obviously blind

As "souls" don't have tongues, they wouldn't have a clue if their host human was eating a turd sandwich or a chocolate.

Yep. It is clear a soul, if it actually existed, is as useful to a human as a tapeworm.
:p
 
The main problem I see with the idea of the soul (as a conscious entity that can survive the death of the physical body) is how this soul would interact with the physical body while eluding the observations of physicists and neuroscientists. If the soul interacted with the body via a very weak force, it might elude the observation of physicists and neuroscientists but its influence on the body would seem insignificant. If on the other hand the soul interacted with the body via a relatively strong force, it seems that this force should be detectable by physicists or neuroscientist[/info]

What they do not know is that the soul or spirit has a spiritual body.
 
What they do not know is that the soul or spirit has a spiritual body.

This answers none of the questions. There is an inherent contradiction in the claims made by believers in spirits. They claim the spirit can have a profound effect on the organism, and they claim simultaneously that the mechanism of this effect lies beyond the ability of science to discover. But the mechanism is irrelevant. The effect itself is either profound or it is not. If it is profound, then it is visible to science. Claimants simply invoke magic to suggest something can be two opposite things at the same time.

"Spiritual body" tells us nothing. If it is a body, then it has finite location. That means you must be able to tell me something about the space that body occupies that is different than the unoccupied space around it. That difference will inform us what the spirit is composed of. But so far no believer can describe that difference in terms that don't require magic. Instead we get a stew of intentionally ambiguous terms that seem aimed at trying to invent some alternate kind of matter than has exactly the properties they need to remain undiscovered, yet have the claimed effects.
 
This answers none of the questions. There is an inherent contradiction in the claims made by believers in spirits. They claim the spirit can have a profound effect on the organism, and they claim simultaneously that the mechanism of this effect lies beyond the ability of science to discover. But the mechanism is irrelevant. The effect itself is either profound or it is not. If it is profound, then it is visible to science. Claimants simply invoke magic to suggest something can be two opposite things at the same time.

"Spiritual body" tells us nothing. If it is a body, then it has finite location. That means you must be able to tell me something about the space that body occupies that is different than the unoccupied space around it. That difference will inform us what the spirit is composed of. But so far no believer can describe that difference in terms that don't require magic. Instead we get a stew of intentionally ambiguous terms that seem aimed at trying to invent some alternate kind of matter than has exactly the properties they need to remain undiscovered, yet have the claimed effects.

the spirit with its spiritual body interacts in matter through the mediumship of people.
 
Well since the troll sock is now gone I guess we'll just have to pretend what was saying wasn't the same thing the "OMG You're just a materliast!" are saying just worded more stupidly.

I really, really want to know where all the Philosophy Defenders disappear off to when some loon comes in hear screaming about souls when IT'S THE EXACT SAME ARGUMENT as the "Hard Problem of Consciousness" that fall over themselves to defend the honor of like they caught it in the hayloft with one of the neighbor boys.
 

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