Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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Of course it matters. Positive stereotypes may be a problem too, but they aren’t the same problem, or even as bad a problem, as negative stereotypes. Ignoring the difference makes no sense.
Of course they're the same problem. Either effect comes from the same mis-application of type to a person without verifying whether or not the type is true. It's a distinction without a difference. The damage arises from the act of stereotyping and not what specifically is being stereotyped.
 
Of course it matters. Positive stereotypes may be a problem too, but they aren’t the same problem, or even as bad a problem, as negative stereotypes. Ignoring the difference makes no sense.

We also seem to be forgetting what is probably the more important question: whether or not the claim is actually true. Rolfe didn't claim that all women agree with her, only that many (most?) do. The correct response isn't to call facts misogynistic, it's to determine if they are true or not.

If Rolfe is wrong, Archie should make that argument. If Rolfe is right, then that's just a simple statement of fact. It's not misogyny to believe true things about the distribution of opinions amoung the population of women.
 
Of course they're the same problem. Either effect comes from the same mis-application of type to a person without verifying whether or not the type is true. It's a distinction without a difference. The damage arises from the act of stereotyping and not what specifically is being stereotyped.

Has Rolfe been misapplying some general trait of women to specific women? Has Rolfe make claims about specific women agreeing with her views on trans because they are women?

No. She has done the opposite, she's make claims about trends that exist among the population of women. It seems to me that those objecting to this are making exactly the error that you point out: thinking that a trend among a population necessarily applies to all it's members. It's only according to that error that Rolfe would be applying a stereotype, but she hasn't done that.
 
Of course they're the same problem. Either effect comes from the same mis-application of type to a person without verifying whether or not the type is true. It's a distinction without a difference. The damage arises from the act of stereotyping and not what specifically is being stereotyped.

Just because 2 problems share a root cause doesn't make them the same problem.

Problems are kind of defined by their effects, not their causes.

And with racism, it's not always the result of stereotyping, be it negative or positive. Simply believing God wants your race to dominate another can be the cause.
 
There's something came up in one of my hobbies I found interesting.

So, FIRST Robotics runs high school robotics competitions. Although lots of schools sponsor teams as student activities, it actually has nothing to do with schools. FIRST is a private not-for-profit 501 c(3). Some teams are "community teams" not affiliated with any school

A couple of weeks ago, one of the mentors (adult volunteers) posted a message to our forum asking for advice about a situation. The team was an all girls' team. At the beginning of the school year, a boy they knew announced he was really a girl, and she wanted to join the team. The trans-girl had undergone no chemical or surgical alteration at this time, and expressed that she actually never intended to do so.

The general consensus was "no problem". It's not like boys have some natural advantage. Everyone should be allowed to participate. Join the team. If anyone on the forum said otherwise, their posts must have been removed. I didn't see any dissent from the position. (There were references to an unusually high number of posts being removed from that thread, but no details on why.)

One other aspect of FIRST is that competitions last 2-4 days, and are often far enough away that the team stays in hotels, sharing rooms. Now what? On this subject, there was considerably more dissent. The most common suggestion was to get her her own room, but many people said that would be unfair to her, treating her differently than the other girls. Others objected, for all the reasons you might expect, to the idea of her sharing a hotel room with cis-girls.

One aspect of the debate really stood out for me, and it's related to the "definition" discussion. You see, there's a group of people that, as a father, I'm interested in. What I mean is that they are of concern to me. I don't know exactly what to call these people these days. Since we're talking about Robotics here, I'll describe this group in mathematical terms. I am referring to:

The set of all teenagers who could make my daughter pregnant.


In ancient days, we used to call that set "boys". It seems like that set is pretty significant, and yet we don't seem to have a name for them anymore. Anyway, it's just an idea. Linguistics. Word games. Semantics. I guess. Yeah.

Another thing that struck me as odd was that there were some people who were not so keen on the trans-girl bunking with the cis girls. They brought up the possibility that "something could happen". Lots of people jumped all over this and noted that "something could happen" whenever same-sex people shared a hotel room, and they tended to chastise the complainers for being homophobic by not recognizing the possibility that sexual things could go on among same sex roommates. The objectors, though, noted that while it was always true that "something could happen" between two girls sharing a room, in the usual situations that wouldn't involve having to buy diapers.

In general, anyone who brought such things up (I abstained from that conversation) was criticized for attacking the trans-girl, assuming that just because she was trans she was going to do something awful. I thought that was really, really, weird. What the objectors were actually saying was that the trans-girl was normal in at least one sense. She, like most teenagers, probably thought about sex a lot, and maybe even wanted to have sex. Her sexual orientation was probably not known to the mentor and certainly wasn't discussed in the thread, except by a few as a hypothetical. Somehow, it just seemed like the supporters of trans-cis roommate pairs were insisting that, alone of all their species, trans people would certainly never engage in sexual activity on a high school trip. Sure, cis-people might do that, but to say a trans-person might was, it seemed, akin to calling them perverts. How dare anyone suggest that such a thing could take place?

If the truth be told, I think most of the time you could throw one cis boy in with three cis girls in a hotel room, and nothing would happen. They would change into sweats and t-shirts in the bathroom, and there would be just as many virgins in the morning as there had been in the evening. Since we're talking Robotics kids, the probabilities go up even higher. I don't think the trans-girl is any more likely to "do anything" than anyone else, but I also don't think she's less likely.


People were awfully guarded on that forum. We try to avoid politics, but it does come up sometimes. Even the tame descriptions above were more "reading between the lines" noting what was implied by what they said. Few people wanted to be blunt. And the thread was shut down after about a week of very heavy activity. A lot more people talked about that thread than the thread about which DC motors best suited for drive trains.

Well, that's all for now. You can imagine what my thoughts were on the subject, but you'll have to. I bring it up just another example of the kinds of questions we face in the 21st century.

ETA: In real life, I don't have a daughter. To the best of my knowledge, my only child is male, both in sex and gender. The concept of a daughter was brought up as an illustration of thoughts that might be expressed by fathers of daughters.
 
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I like your examples. They actually illustrate your point very nicely.

But instead of the above, I think "women are great at cooking" would be a better analogy. Is that sexist, regardless of whether it's true?

I would say it is as it's communicating an age old gender stereotype which plays into the 'women should stay home and cook for their husbands'. So even if it was not intended as such I think you should still say it is.

If you said something more neutral like 'women are good at riding bicycles' it may well not be.
 
We also seem to be forgetting what is probably the more important question: whether or not the claim is actually true. Rolfe didn't claim that all women agree with her, only that many (most?) do. The correct response isn't to call facts misogynistic, it's to determine if they are true or not.

No actually her original post did speak for ALL women. I called her out on it and her response was to say that most women do agree with her.

If Rolfe is wrong, Archie should make that argument. If Rolfe is right, then that's just a simple statement of fact. It's not misogyny to believe true things about the distribution of opinions amoung the population of women.

I'm not sure I agree completely but the reality is that neither Rolfe nor I know what most women think and I think it's textbook prejudice to assign a belief to them in this way.

And that was my point, that not only is it damaging to trans people to claim that all women hold these views, but that it is also insulting to women. I know a lot of women who don't hold these views. I have no idea who is in the majority and wouldn't claim to.
 
We also seem to be forgetting what is probably the more important question: whether or not the claim is actually true. Rolfe didn't claim that all women agree with her, only that many (most?) do. The correct response isn't to call facts misogynistic, it's to determine if they are true or not.

Yeah but the latter's a lot more work and the former has the added benefit of attaching a convenient label on your opponent.
 
I would say it is as it's communicating an age old gender stereotype which plays into the 'women should stay home and cook for their husbands'.

For pete's sake, Archie, that was never part of the question. You added that because it conforms to _your_ prejudices.

Change it to whatever you like: women are good at swimming; women are good at driving cars; women are good at shooting skeet. Anything you like. The question remains the same, and you dodged it by taking it in a completely different direction.
 
If the truth can be sexist, then there's no reason for me to care about whether something is sexist. I will not object to the truth.

If you read that again you will see the response was regardless of it being true. So we had put aside whether it is true or not.

I can't force you to care about whether something is sexist (or any other -ist) or not, it's not really my responsibility.

I can explain these things to you, I can't understand them for you and I certainly can't make you care.
 
I'm not sure I agree completely but the reality is that neither Rolfe nor I know what most women think and I think it's textbook prejudice to assign a belief to them in this way.

I'm not entirely on board with the idea that it's prejudice, but I certainly agree that the claim of fact should be questioned, particularly when it's put forth without evidence, as seems to have been the case.

On the other hand, if only a minority (as long as it's a large minority) of women have concerns about sharing protected spaces with transwomen, I still think that's an issue. It need not be all or even most women for their concerns to be valid.
 
If you read that again you will see the response was regardless of it being true. So we had put aside whether it is true or not.

Sure, but that's the problem. I would say that only false beliefs about the sexes can actually be sexist in a way that we should be concerned with, so "regardless of it being true" can't apply, unless we're willing to condemn both false and true beliefs.
 
For pete's sake, Archie, that was never part of the question. You added that because it conforms to _your_ prejudices.

Change it to whatever you like: women are good at swimming; women are good at driving cars; women are good at shooting skeet. Anything you like. The question remains the same, and you dodged it by taking it in a completely different direction.

Weird that you got het up about this as I actually went on to do the very thing you suggested here and even stated that a totally neutral statement may well not be.

But we are in a slightly weird hypothetical now where someone claims that women are good at riding bicycles, and we don't know what the intent behind that claim is or whether it is true or how they have arrived at the conclusion.

So we are quite far away from a claim that 'most women hold transphobic views' which I think we would both agree is not a neutral statement.

To give some equivalents that I can talk about from personal experience, as a white guy I don't like it when racists claim that every white person agrees with them (i think i have seen some examples of that on this forum) and as a British person I don't like it when xenophobes claim that British people agree with their xenophobic views.

I imagine were I a women I would feel quite offended if anyone was to tell me that I agree with their transphobic views.
 
If you read that again you will see the response was regardless of it being true. So we had put aside whether it is true or not.

I got that the first time, genius, it's you who missed my point. You don't care if it's true. You don't care if it's factually correct. You care if it's politically correct. And if it's politically incorrect but factually correct, then you still find it objectionable.

I will not put aside whether or not something is true. I don't have todo that, no matter how much you might want me to. People who want you to ignore the truth don't generally have anyone else's best interests in mind.
 
For pete's sake, Archie, that was never part of the question. You added that because it conforms to _your_ prejudices.

Change it to whatever you like: women are good at swimming; women are good at driving cars; women are good at shooting skeet. Anything you like. The question remains the same, and you dodged it by taking it in a completely different direction.

You're wrong, Belz..., Archie got to the heart of the matter with his answer. He admitted that the truth is secondary to ideology.
 
I have to say that I agree that it's generally not cool to speak for your entire group, particularly if you don't have a poll or some other data to show that at least the majority agrees with you.

As I said though, there is a valid point in saying that many women share Rolfe's concerns. I do agree that she overreached by saying that all (or even most) do*. Unless she has some evidence of that latter claim.

*I haven't gone back to double check what Rolfe actually said and am going on Archie's statement here: "No actually her original post did speak for ALL women. I called her out on it and her response was to say that most women do agree with her."
 
Weird that you got het up about this as I actually went on to do the very thing you suggested here and even stated that a totally neutral statement may well not be.

So pick one and answer the question.

But we are in a slightly weird hypothetical now where someone claims that women are good at riding bicycles, and we don't know what the intent behind that claim is or whether it is true or how they have arrived at the conclusion.

Oh, is intent relevant now? I thought it wasn't yesterday when you argued that Rolfe's view on the characteristics assigned to women were irrelevant.

So we are quite far away from a claim that 'most women hold transphobic views' which I think we would both agree is not a neutral statement.

Rolfe never said that. YOU are the one who interprets what she argues as transphobic.
 
I'm not entirely on board with the idea that it's prejudice, but I certainly agree that the claim of fact should be questioned, particularly when it's put forth without evidence, as seems to have been the case.

On the other hand, if only a minority (as long as it's a large minority) of women have concerns about sharing protected spaces with transwomen, I still think that's an issue. It need not be all or even most women for their concerns to be valid.

Indeed, if the concerns are valid then they are valid. I don't think they are mostly but my complaint was about someone speaking on behalf of all women.

Sure, but that's the problem. I would say that only false beliefs about the sexes can actually be sexist in a way that we should be concerned with, so "regardless of it being true" can't apply, unless we're willing to condemn both false and true beliefs.

Again, I don't disagree strongly here but with the caveat that I think you can shape true claims in a way that would still be problematic if you strip them of context, or add context that points to certain conclusions.

For example, the statement 'Most successful CEOs are men' is a fact. But I certainly think I would have concerns with that statement depending on how it was being used.

In fact that reminds me of another example. I have seen it said (on this forum I think) that men are naturally more competitive and more aggressive and therefore are more likely to become senior managers and be better in those roles. I think that is a statement that is prejudiced against women and prejudiced against men even though the person saying it obviously thought this was a positive statement about men. It may even be a true statement. But still troublesome.
 
I got that the first time, genius, it's you who missed my point. You don't care if it's true. You don't care if it's factually correct. You care if it's politically correct. And if it's politically incorrect but factually correct, then you still find it objectionable.

I will not put aside whether or not something is true. I don't have todo that, no matter how much you might want me to. People who want you to ignore the truth don't generally have anyone else's best interests in mind.

Well you had better complain to Belz then, because it was him that asked for truth to be put aside.

But yeah, if you are one of THOSE people, then yes. You do you. As I said, I can't make you care.
 
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