Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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Rolfe said:
I can totally sympathise with that, and in fact it's what makes a lot of this trans business so frustrating. Men decide they literally are women if they adopt a bunch of feminine stereotypes, as if "woman" is defined as someone who wears certain clothes, certain makeup, and behaves in a certain way. We're not.
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What I'm taking exception to is the argument that says being female is nothing but a performance, and any man who does the right performance is therefore literally female.
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I don't think that's what's happening at all.

I found the idea that there is some genetic predisposition to wearing dresses or makeup absurd. So I started watching videos to try to understand. As a result, I formed the hypothesis that most transgenderism relates to dysphoria (likely genetic) and expression of what is perceived as gendered dress provides relief of dysphoria.

They don't dress to be women. They already consider themselves to be women mentally. Adopting stereotypically gendered dress allows internal and external perceptions (by themselves and others) to match up, thus not triggering acute dysphoric feelings.

More gender-neutral dress, by the way would not be as effective if my thoughts are correct.

I'm not sure I'm entirely correct in this. Not-being trans myself I think it may not really be possible to completely understand.
 
I think some of that is generational too; a young trans person today might wonder ‘am I a girl? I think I’m a girl’ where one from an older generation might go ‘maybe I’d be happier if I was a woman?’
 
TomB said:
I don't think that's what's happening at all.

I found the idea that there is some genetic predisposition to wearing dresses or makeup absurd. So I started watching videos to try to understand. As a result, I formed the hypothesis that most transgenderism relates to dysphoria (likely genetic) and expression of what is perceived as gendered dress provides relief of dysphoria.

They don't dress to be women. They already consider themselves to be women mentally. Adopting stereotypically gendered dress allows internal and external perceptions (by themselves and others) to match up, thus not triggering acute dysphoric feelings.

More gender-neutral dress, by the way would not be as effective if my thoughts are correct.

I'm not sure I'm entirely correct in this. Not-being trans myself I think it may not really be possible to completely understand.
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I think that your "hypothesis" might have been true 15 or 20 years ago. Nowadays however there is a (successful) push to include cross-dressing, transvestitism and transgenderism all under the "trans" umbrella and we're seeing an increasing number of men who cheerfully agree they have no dysphoria claiming to be women.

Also, a woman is an adult human female. A male cannot be a female or turn into a female. Being female is about being born in and growing up in and living in a female body, and nobody who hasn't done that can claim to know what it feels like. Hell, even those who have done that mainly say that they don't "feel like" women, they simply are women.

Being a woman is not a feeling in anybody's head. If your body is male you cannot possibly be a woman. Seek relief from dysphoria by all means. Call yourself a transwoman rather than a man. But it's absolutely delusional to think that someone born in a male body can in any possible way "be a woman mentally".
 
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If approached from a platform of " I know what I am, it is my right to be that. " it works for the individual within their own space. Once outside that space society has a voice and all other individuals will respond as they see fit. Laws may prevent the extreme and damaging reactions.

But then inaction can be used to express a dislike for how anyone is percieved. Anyone can be a victim.

Birds of a feather tend to flock together, and bigger cities have thriving non binary populations that form an entire subculture. In that acceptance and understanding is easy.

Backwater, Tennessee deep in the bible belt of the US won't be so kind, may never be no matter the laws.



Those are factors to consider if one chooses to be different and possibly anything that could offend another mindset. I have traveled some and become part of the community where I stayed, not being flamboyant and offensive has helped a lot in being accepted.
Even if I bore myself sometimes.
 
8enotto said:
If approached from a platform of " I know what I am, it is my right to be that. " it works for the individual within their own space.
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Why does it only work for sex though? If a white person says "I know what I am, I am black, it is my right to be that", society doesn't give them a pass on that. Similarly with age, height, presence or absence of disability, all sorts of things.

There's virtually no category that you can simply "identify" into when you do not, objectively, possess the characteristics of that category. Except when it comes to what sex you are. Why should that be special?

Imagine someone saying "I know I'm black, therefore I insist you give me this scholarship which is set aside for black people." Or else "I know I'm disabled, I insist you give me disability benefit so I don't have to work." Or else "I know I'm the son of Prince Charles, I insist you give me my share of the civil list money and record me in my proper place in line for the throne."

"Knowing" that you're a woman when you are objectively a man (or the other way around for that matter) is no less ludicrous than any of that. Why is it the only one that gets a free pass?
 
And then there is the next line that says society doesn't have to recognize what you do at home.

And if you are way off base it won't fly. Silly ideas are doomed to fail.
 
Nobody is worried about what trans people do at home. Except their families of course. It's when they demand the right to do things that directly take rights away from other people that the conflict arises.

And a man being convinced he's a woman is no less silly than a white person being convinced they're black - less silly, indeed, because race really is a spectrum and a lot of white people probably have some negro genes in there. No less silly than believing you're a different age, or a different height, or have a disability you don't actually have. All fly in the face of easily verifiable objective reality.
 
Ziggurat said:
This accusation doesn't even have internal consistency.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that some of your premises are correct, namely:
1) Rolfe is a bigot
2) Rolfe thinks most other women are bigots
If that were the case, then Rolfe doesn't think bigotry is a bad thing. And if she doesn't think bigotry is a bad thing, then believing most women are bigots doesn't constitute thinking badly of other women. So how could that possibly constitute misogyny?

Your accusation is self-contradictory. It is thus not to be taken seriously.
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Questions answered: 0
Understanding demonstrated: 0
Sense talked: 0

Yep. Thanks for your input.
 
And yet another one acting as if the proposed amendments to the GRA have been passed when they haven't.
 
Rolfe said:
It's when they demand the right to do things that directly take rights away from other people that the conflict arises.
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We have heard the old 'don't take away my right to discriminate' canard time and time again. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now.

If you are uncomfortable around someone who is trans just because they are trans then that is your problem, not theirs.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Questions answered: 0
Understanding demonstrated: 0
Sense talked: 0

Yep. Thanks for your input.
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What obligation do you imagine I have to answer questions that weren’t even asked of me? As for understanding or sense, there is nothing in your response to indicate any on your part, so you aren’t exactly in a position to lecture me.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Nope. The law already recognises gender changes. Stop lying.
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Rolfe isn’t lying, you aren’t paying attention. People who declare themselves to have changed sex get treated as if they have changed sex even in the absence of any legal change of sex.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
We have heard the old 'don't take away my right to discriminate' canard time and time again. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now.

If you are uncomfortable around someone who is trans just because they are trans then that is your problem, not theirs.
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I don’t think Rolfe has expressed being uncomfortable around trans people because they are trans in any situation. She has expressed discomfort at being around biological males, be they trans women or cis men, in certain intimate or vulnerable contexts. But it isn’t because they are trans, it’s because they are male.
 
Rolfe isn’t lying, you aren’t paying attention. People who declare themselves to have changed sex get treated as if they have changed sex even in the absence of any legal change of sex.
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People who get a GRC acquire the protected characteristic of gender ressignment. They do not, at present, actually become the opposite sex. The law recognises the difference between women and transwomen, quite specifically.
 
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Archie Gemmill Goal said:
We have heard the old 'don't take away my right to discriminate' canard time and time again. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now.

If you are uncomfortable around someone who is trans just because they are trans then that is your problem, not theirs.
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Women have the right to certain spaces and protections and categories that are exclusive to the female sex. Trans-identifying males, who are not of the female sex and will never become the female sex, are demanding the right to be included in these spaces and protections and categories, without exception. That then destroys these spaces, protections and categories as being exclusive to the female sex, as male-bodied people are now permitted to enter.

That is the removal of women's rights, however much you like to dress it up in nasty language.
 
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