• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

The Trump Presidency: Part 18

Status
Not open for further replies.
phiwum said:
I disagree. They have to make a clear case for obstruction and that requires gathering facts including public statements but also private discussions of withholding evidence. Obstruction is ongoing and Mueller's report has already been dismissed by ther GOP, so new arguments are essential.
Click to expand...
This is crap.

Just because Mueller's conclusions about obstruction occurring have been covered up, doesn't mean they couldn't be effectively uncovered by a decent campaign.

In addition, Trump is obstructing the current investigation into extorting Zelensky every day.

And what looks to be coming out, despite the Trumpers trying to get everyone to 'look over there', is a lot more under the iceberg tip. When was the infamous phone call? A couple months ago?

Yovanovitch testimony
Yovanovitch offered significant threads of information including the possibility that Trump was directly involved in a phone call with Giuliani, the president’s personal lawyer, and the Ukrainians dating back to January 2018. And she pushed back on Republican suggestions that she harbored opposition to Trump.
Click to expand...
That means Trump and Giuliani pushing the whole 'Ukraine did it, not Russia' CT goes back close to two years. And who knows, maybe more.

There's a lot more here than a single phone call.
 
Last edited:
It makes imminent sense to focus Trump's actions affecting the 2020 election, at least for now.
The House must make a stand for its powers of Oversight, even if the Senate will stab it in the back.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I disagree. They have to make a clear case for obstruction and that requires gathering facts including public statements but also private discussions of withholding evidence. Obstruction is ongoing and Mueller's report has already been dismissed by ther GOP, so new arguments are essential.
Click to expand...
This is crap.

Just because Mueller's conclusions about obstruction occurring have been covered up, doesn't mean they couldn't be effectively uncovered by a decent campaign.
Click to expand...
If the average American voter were interested in truth an integrity I might agree... There is a lot that could be revealed that might make people say "whoa... Trump has done some illegal stuff".

The problem is, people often refer to sound bites, and their attention is often far too short.

Mueller did a good job at documenting some of Trump's illegal and otherwise questionable activity, but his desire to be "fair" and "play by the rules" (i.e. no little clips that would get people's attention; his "I didn't exonerate" wouldn't really do it) has meant that the impact of his work won't resonate with many of the people that we need to pay attention.
 
Trump Tweets

A wonderful family and friends from Utah got caught between two vicious drug cartels, who were shooting at each other, with the result being many great American people killed, including young children, and some missing. If Mexico needs or requests help in cleaning out these.....

....monsters, the United States stands ready, willing & able to get involved and do the job quickly and effectively. The great new President of Mexico has made this a big issue, but the cartels have become so large and powerful that you sometimes need an army to defeat an army!

....monsters, the United States stands ready, willing & able to get involved and do the job quickly and effectively. The great new President of Mexico has made this a big issue, but the cartels have become so large and powerful that you sometimes need an army to defeat an army!
 
Trump Tweets

So sad to see what is happening in New York where Governor Cuomo & Mayor DeBlasio are letting out 900 Criminals, some hardened & bad, onto the sidewalks of our rapidly declining, because of them, city. The Radical Left Dems are killing our cities. NYPD Commissioner is resigning!
 
Segnosaur said:
If the average American voter were interested in truth an integrity I might agree... There is a lot that could be revealed that might make people say "whoa... Trump has done some illegal stuff".

The problem is, people often refer to sound bites, and their attention is often far too short.

Mueller did a good job at documenting some of Trump's illegal and otherwise questionable activity, but his desire to be "fair" and "play by the rules" (i.e. no little clips that would get people's attention; his "I didn't exonerate" wouldn't really do it) has meant that the impact of his work won't resonate with many of the people that we need to pay attention.
Click to expand...

I ABSOLUTELY believe the average American is interested in truth and integrity. There's a reason that despite a fairly robust economy that Trump has the highest unfavorability ratings of any President since Nixon. They care. It's just not the only variable.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
And what looks to be coming out, despite the Trumpers trying to get everyone to 'look over there', is a lot more under the iceberg tip. When was the infamous phone call? A couple months ago?

Yovanovitch testimony
That means Trump and Giuliani pushing the whole 'Ukraine did it, not Russia' CT goes back close to two years. And who knows, maybe more.

There's a lot more here than a single phone call.
Click to expand...

According to what Rick Gates told the FBI during his interviews in 2018 at the time of Robert Mueller's investigation, the whole, now thoroughly debunked "it was Ukraine that interfered in the US election" shtick began with Paul Manafort and Konstantin Kilimnik, a Russian/Ukrainian political consultant with close ties to Russian intelligence.... that was back in late 2016 - early 2017, before Manafort became a person of interest in the Special Counsel's investigation.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/...cs-show-manafort-blamed-ukraine-for-dem-hacks

Gates told investigators that Manafort speculated the Ukrainians were behind the 2016 hacks of Democrats’ emails.

“Gates recalled Manafort saying the hack was likely carried out by the Ukrainians, not the Russians, which parroted a narrative Kilimnik often supported,” the 302 reads.

A related conspiracy theory is now the subject of the House’s impeachment inquiry. In his call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, Trump pressed Zelensky on a conspiracy that the hacked DNC “server” — though in reality there’s more than one — was actually in Ukraine. Such theories assert that evidence collected from the Democratic servers pinning the hacks on Russia was actually manufactured.​


And another thing..... The whole "the DNC server was taken from the USA to Ukraine" thing has to be rubbish - it just brilliantly shows up the total cyber-ignorance of Trump and his minions. Why on earth would anyone take the high risk of physically trying to smuggle a server out of the country, when they could just mirror that server to another server anywhere in the world, then destroy the original.
 
Last edited:
An interesting perspective:
Today’s great divide is not between left and right. It’s between democracy and oligarchy.
There are no longer “moderates.” There’s no longer a “center.” The most powerful force in American politics today is anti-establishment fury at a rigged system.

Four decades ago, when America had a large and growing middle class, the left wanted stronger social safety nets and more public investment in schools, roads and research. The right sought greater reliance on the free market.

In those days, a general election was like a competition between two hotdog vendors on a long boardwalk extending from left to right. To maximize sales, each had to move to the middle. If one strayed too far left or right, the other would move beside him and take all sales from the rest of the boardwalk.

This older American politics is now obsolete. As wealth and power have moved to the top and the middle class has shrunk, more Americans have joined the ranks of the working class and poor.
Click to expand...
https://www.salon.com/2019/11/04/robert-reich-the-real-divide_partner/
 
I see the divide between homogeneity and heterogeneity.

Republicans want to divide the country into US and THEM.

Democrats are much more comfortable with diversity.
 
Last edited:
The Great Zaganza said:
I see the divide between homogeneity and heterogeneity.

Republicans want to divide the country into US and THEM.

Democrats are much more comfortable with diversity.
Click to expand...

But what is the motivation for Republicans?
Are they truly believe THEM is bad, or is it just an opportunity to win?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Trump Tweets

So sad to see what is happening in New York where Governor Cuomo & Mayor DeBlasio are letting out 900 Criminals, some hardened & bad, onto the sidewalks of our rapidly declining, because of them, city. The Radical Left Dems are killing our cities. NYPD Commissioner is resigning!
Click to expand...
I saw the tweet and wondered what was behind it.

From what I have seen:
- The release of the '900 criminals' involves the removal of bail conditions (which are often seen as discriminatory) from people awaiting trial, and not people who have been convicted
- The measure is targeted mostly at people with either misdemeanor or non-violent felonies. (There are claims that it impacts violent offenders too, but I don't see any evidence)
- A judge can still override things if they feel they will not show up for trial
- It is true that the NYPD commissioner is resigning. But it appears to be totally unrelated to this new law. (Instead it may have more to do with friction caused by the handling of a case where a policeman had harmed a suspect.)

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2019/11/05/trump-de-blasio-on-ny-bail-reform/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ted-announce-his-resignation-sources-n1076141
 
Belz... said:
Hasn't he been pretty vocal against anti-vaxers in the past?
Click to expand...

No, he has supported the anti-vaxxers, at least to some degree.
Maher then lent credence to anti-vaccination sentiment: “There’s all these parents who say, ‘I had a normal child, got the vaccine.’ This story keeps coming up. It seems to be more realistic to me, if we’re just going to be realistic about it. Like, it probably happens so rarely, but you can’t say it happens one in a million times because then somebody could think, ‘Well, I could be this millionth one.’ So, you scare people, so you can’t say what might be the more realistic opinion.”
Click to expand...
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bill-maher-vaccines_n_5dbdd430e4b0576b62a2d175
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Trump Tweets

A wonderful family and friends from Utah got caught between two vicious drug cartels, who were shooting at each other, with the result being many great American people killed, including young children, and some missing. If Mexico needs or requests help in cleaning out these.....

....monsters, the United States stands ready, willing & able to get involved and do the job quickly and effectively. The great new President of Mexico has made this a big issue, but the cartels have become so large and powerful that you sometimes need an army to defeat an army!

....monsters, the United States stands ready, willing & able to get involved and do the job quickly and effectively. The great new President of Mexico has made this a big issue, but the cartels have become so large and powerful that you sometimes need an army to defeat an army!
Click to expand...

Did he reveal he was copying and pasting there?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Share this page

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom