Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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Distinction without difference.

But it is probably an issue with me. I don't understand sports in general. Like the designated hitter rule, why is there only one? Why are there so many Olympic swimming and weightlifting medals? Seems like it only needs four and one, respectively.


Same reason there are so many running medals

100m, 200m, 400m, 800m, 1500m 5000m, 10,000, maratho, 3 X jumping over things at 110m,400m and 3000m, 2 nearly running, but walking really quickly in kind of a waddle, a steeplechase thing and then doing it in groups of 4 in relays.

You could say why not just have some people run the 100 meters, but that would be a bit silly
 
I think, to expand on Tom's analogy, supposing you were applying for a job that (invent your own reason) provided a golden opportunity to indulge in cannibalism if the holder was so inclined. Now cannibalism may be rare in the general population but I would not necessarily expect it to be rare in the population that would apply for that job. So if you've applied for it, I want you screened for cannibalism. And if you object to being screened, I definitely don't want you in that job.

And it's not correct to assume that the proportion of trans-identifying men who will be sexually problematic (including both predators and sex pests, for example menstrual fetishism) is no greater than it is in the population as a whole. The strong link between identifying as a woman and autogynaephilia, which is a sexual fetish, skews this statistic. And Yaniv may be extreme, but there are plenty more autogynaephiles out there of a similar bent.

It used to be the case that clinicians (or some of them) would turn men down for transition if they showed up as autogynaephiles, and there were strategems being shared among transitioning men to try to conceal their AGP feelings. Maybe this wasn't fair, because not all AGP men are sex pests by a long way, but it demonstrates that the problem was recognised. Now, say you're a woman, and you're in.
 
In other words, we'd need actual numbers .... about those who regret transition, etc. before we can draw a conclusion.


You won't get these. Even pointing out that some people regret transition is transphobic. A couple of years ago a researcher at Bath Spa university noticed a bick uptich in the numbers of people desisting and transitioning back and was awarded a research grant to study the phenomenon. The TRAs subjected the university to a sustained campaign declaring that his research was transphobic and hateful and harmful to trans people, and the grant was withdrawn. The university said that they would get adverse reaction on social media and they didn't want that.


ETA: Another reason we can't get detransition rates is that the clinics who see these patients don't do systematic follow-up. Follow-up studies that have been reported have covered only a few years, the period when patients would still be expected to be trying to make a go of it. Longer-terms figures are probably a lot less reassuring. In particular the huge spike in girls presenting with ROGD is so recent that we haven't had time to see what sort of detransition rates there will be. Anecdotally, most of the people coming out and telling their detransition stories are ROGD cases.
 
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Same reason there are so many running medals

100m, 200m, 400m, 800m, 1500m 5000m, 10,000, maratho, 3 X jumping over things at 110m,400m and 3000m, 2 nearly running, but walking really quickly in kind of a waddle, a steeplechase thing and then doing it in groups of 4 in relays.

You could say why not just have some people run the 100 meters, but that would be a bit silly

I disagree
 
In other words, we'd need actual numbers about the abusers .... before we can draw a conclusion.


This is another statistic we can't get, for two reasons. One is that nobody has a clue how many transwomen there are in the country. Only a tiny minority actually have a GRC. So we can't get the baseline number we'd need.

The other reason is that many if not most police departments are now operating as if self-ID was already the law. (They have been paying a lot of money to Stonewall for "diversity training" and Stonewall have been training police to act as if their proposals for an updated GRA are already the law of the land.) The result is that the sex of any suspect is recorded as the sex the person claims to be, not the sex they actually are. There is no way to get actual sex statistics out of the system as a result.

All we know is that, as I said, 48% of prisoners who identify as transwomen are in prison for sexual assault, child molestation or rape. Caveat, though. That's only prisoners who identify as transwomen but do not have a GRC. Those who do are simply recorded as female and we have no idea who they are, how many there are, or what they have done.

Also this web page which tries to keep a record of crimes known to have been committed by transwomen in an effort to get a handle on the problem. http://transcrimeuk.com/ (It's unfortunate that the way the graphics are done on that site makes the same newspaper front page image appear against all the examples.) This page is particularly interesting. http://transcrimeuk.com/2017/11/12/...convicted-of-violence-against-women-children/

That web site originally started as a twitter account but it was banned after the TRA twitter mob complained that it was "hateful". But the cases are all real. Of course as we don't have a baseline for the number of transwomen in the country then we still don't have "a number".
 
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In other words, we'd need actual numbers about the abusers, and about those who degret transition, etc. before we can draw a conclusion.
You won't get these.

In addition to the problems Rolfe pointed out, there's also the problem that things are changing. We're being asked to accept new standards for how to transition and how to treat people who have transitioned. And those changes will likely change the number of predators who try to take advantage of the situation. So even if you had accurate numbers on how things have been, that won't tell you how things will be.
 
In addition to the problems Rolfe pointed out, there's also the problem that things are changing. We're being asked to accept new standards for how to transition and how to treat people who have transitioned. And those changes will likely change the number of predators who try to take advantage of the situation. So even if you had accurate numbers on how things have been, that won't tell you how things will be.


The original Gender Recognition Act, which allowed people with a GRC certain privileges normally reserved for the opposite sex, was passed based on figures of only a tiny number of people ever wanting to become the opposite sex. So as well as the safeguarding built into the process, legislators felt that with the numbers being so small that most people would never even meet a trans person, they could afford to be a little generous with women's protected spaces.

See this blog page which describes the current GRA which is still in force. I note that as of January last year only about 4,500 GRCs had been issued. (Some of them will have been to women becoming men, of course.) Even if we discount the people who fully transitioned before the Act came into force and who didn't even know such a certificate existed (a friend of mine, living as a woman for decades, said initially "what's a GRC?"), we have to face the fact that the numbers of people who identify as trans are now increasing enormously.

Whether huge numbers would bother getting a GRC if the new "just sign here" procedure becomes law, I don't know. Since it's possible to acquire pretty much all the concessions of trans identity without one, it's doubtful. If you only have to say you're trans to be treated as if you're the opposite sex, and if you can enforce this treatment by calling anyone who demurs a transphobe and calling the police on them for a hate crime, why bother?

And as I said, the police have had all that Stonewall training, they're not going to side with the bearded man in the ladies' changing room, We know that.
 
This needs addressing.

At the moment, in both Scotland and England, there is a particular process to go through to get a GRC. It takes time and requires psychological assessments and it can be refused. The purpose is two-fold. First to help the patient themselves, so that they can transition to living as if they were the opposite sex with as little trauma as possible. And second to safeguard the general public and in particular women and children from men who would abuse this process to gain access to women's protected spaces for their own predatory purposes. There was the expectation of at least some degree of commitment. If not full sex reassignment surgery then at least taking the hormones of the opposite sex.

Moreover, even after that transition, the person does not become indistinguishable from the opposite sex. They have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, but not the protected characteristic of being female (in the case of MtF transitioners). It is still legal to exclude them in circumstances where it is necessary and proportionate having regard to the needs of other people - for example from rape crisis centres where the presence of a male person may be extremely distressing to a woman who has been raped.

Now actually while I might quibble with some of the details here (for example I'm very much against falsifying the historical document that is a birth certificate), in principle it's not a bad arrangement. It takes into account not just the needs or desires of the transitioning person but the interests of the rest of society.

The trans rights activists want all that changed. They want all the gatekeeping removed. They describe it as demeaning and humiliating. (Older transsexuals on the other hand say it's essential and is the thing that kept them sane during transition and made them able to live in society as if they were the opposite sex. But nobody is listening to them.) The TRAs want no gatekeeping at all, and want a simple declaration in front of a JP (that's JP, not GP) and signing a form to be all that is required to get a GRC. (After the recent protests by women's rights groups the proposal to put a six-month waiting period in there has been added, but it still doesn't require counselling or psychotherapy and the TRAs are furious about even that.)

Not only is no alteration to the transitioning person's body required, it's becoming extremely unclear what "living as a woman" actually means. Now this has always been problematic, because it relies on the very stereotypes that women find so offensive. Is it only about how you dress? Many women spend their lives in jeans and sweatshirts and trainers. This was always a bone of contention. But now that men can transition without even shaving off their beards it's getting even less clear what transitioning even means. You don't change anything about yourself except you can now get undressed in the ladies changing room and sleep in the women's dormitory in the youth hostel and demand that a female beauty salon wax your balls?

But indeed, the proposals (which the Scottish government still seems determined to railroad through) do make getting a GRC not much more difficult than simply saying "I am a woman", and that is at the very heart of the objections coming from women. This is already law in Canada and some other countries and the rapidly-intensifying bin fires we can see there should be a wakeup call.

But then there's another point. You don't actually need a GRC to live your daily life as if you were the opposite sex, or even to claim that you are the opposite sex and have people treat you in that way. At present only a tiny number of people actually have GRCs. Partly this is beause they were only introduced in about 2009, specifically to allow transwomen to marry men in the days before same=sex marriage was legal. Arguably, what's the point now? But this means that people who transitioned more than ten years ago don't usually have one and often don't even know they exist.

But also, the modern, militant type of transwoman doesn't bother. Again, it's not necessary when challenging any man who claims to be a woman can be framed as transphobia and a hate crime. The people who are loudest in demanding their right to unfettered access to women's protected spaces don't have GRCs and nobody is telling them to shut up and behave like the men they are until they've got one. This is because legally they don't need a GRC to claim trans privilege.

So in practical terms, "changing your gender" absolutely is as simple as saying "I am a woman" even now.

But it goes further than that. People with a GRC do have more privileges than people who just adopt trans status, but then as I said even there the privileges are not absolute. Necessary and proportionate provisions for genuine single-sex services can be made.

The TRAs want all this ended. They are specifically lobbying for all these exceptions in the Equalities Act to be removed, so that there will be absolutely nowhere that a woman can go that a transwoman (now "self-declared", just a few words in front of a JP) can't go. Even more outrageously, while they are lobbying for the removal of the right of a woman to request that a female perform intimate care for her, they are simultaneously lobbying for the right of a trans person to request intimate care from another trans person!

So I think the most helpful thing is to understand what the present legal position is, and what current actual practice is (not the same thing), and what changes to the legal position are being proposed. In effect the TRAs have performed a policy capture exercise and have succeeded in getting many organisations and authorities to behave as if the legal changes they're lobbying for are actually current law. Current law isn't too bad. But the TRAs are driving a coach and horses through it already and want to make their version of reality the legal one. This is what the women's rights groups are opposing.

A long and inaccurate way of saying 'yes you are right Archie. Legally changing your gender is different from just saying 'I am a woman' under the current system and any proposed future system'
 
A long and inaccurate way of saying 'yes you are right Archie. Legally changing your gender is different from just saying 'I am a woman' under the current system and any proposed future system'


An attempt at an explanation of why, although it might be different legally, it makes absolutely no practical difference whatsoever about 99% of the time. Sorry you can't take that on board.

And it is entirely accurate.
 
Another thread bobbed to hell and back. We really ought to stop playing ball. This is just ridiculous.
 
Another thread bobbed to hell and back. We really ought to stop playing ball. This is just ridiculous.


When will they ever learn?

What more can be said in this thread anyways? I think everything has been said at least a dozen times now. Dudes aren't chicks, thread over.
 
Talking of numbers of transwomen violent or sex offenders, this just appeared on twitter. I wonder how long the twitter police will take to ban this one?

https://twitter.com/historywoman/status/1191453438825181186

I counted my way down and it has 45 cases on it, all serious enough offences to have attracted prison sentences. I don't know what time period that covers, and as I said before, we don't have a baseline number for "men who identify as women" to get a percentage. But how many does it have to be before it's too many?
 
And it's not correct to assume that the proportion of trans-identifying men who will be sexually problematic (including both predators and sex pests, for example menstrual fetishism) is no greater than it is in the population as a whole. The strong link between identifying as a woman and autogynaephilia, which is a sexual fetish, skews this statistic. And Yaniv may be extreme, but there are plenty more autogynaephiles out there of a similar bent.

Wait a minute...this is taking a tack that lacks any sort of logic.

Even assuming autogynaephilia, which you call a fetish, is behind transgenderism what does that have to do with being a sexual predator? If someone is sexually aroused by the thought of themelf as a woman, a lumberjack or a cabbage...so what?

Are you equating sexual fetishes with sexual violence? Because I don't think that is correct.

Granted there are harmful fetishes out there (voyeurism without consent, or fetishes that involve force, for example) but I think you need to provide some support to link a fetish involving perception of one's self to violence against another.
 
I know it's the least of the offenses listed, but the fact that one of these guys named himself "Tiffany Aching" still feels like salt in the wound.


I quite liked Obi Wan Kenobi / Mighty Almighty who is also a Tiffany.

To all the people who are entirely happy to allow any man who identifies as a woman to serve his sentence in a women's prison, these are the people you're wanting locked up in what are at most (in male prison terms) medium security establishments where there are no facilities for segregating predatory and violent men away from women who may be abuse victims in jail for defaulting on a fine.

Women in prison can't escape from these men. "Karen White" raped a woman in a women's prison. In court the victim was forced to describe the assault using the words "her erect penis". I can't begin to imagine the male entitlement that can say, this is OK, these are really women so it's fine.

Look, we get it. Some men have difficulty living in a masculine role. Just stop turning women's spaces and women's lives into the asylum.
 
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Talking of numbers of transwomen violent or sex offenders, this just appeared on twitter. I wonder how long the twitter police will take to ban this one?

https://twitter.com/historywoman/status/1191453438825181186

I counted my way down and it has 45 cases on it, all serious enough offences to have attracted prison sentences. I don't know what time period that covers, and as I said before, we don't have a baseline number for "men who identify as women" to get a percentage. But how many does it have to be before it's too many?

And yet you have no numbers regarding the incidence of trans people who are sex offenders. And no, that link is not that. It is a list of trans people convicted of violent crimes going back several decades. Ignoring the fact that not all of the crimes were sex crimes, a count only provides a numerator, not a denominator.

The post you link doesn't even try to make a case linking between sex crimes or violence to being trans. It's just making the point of what prison do you put trans people in. An adjacent, but different issue.
 
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