Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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Jaimi doesn’t believe sport is about winning, certainly no more than it is about inclusion. And they hope others will come to that conclusion as well.

“It’s just a matter of being able to experience your body,” Jaimi said, “and everybody should glorify that because it’s fun.”
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Idiot.
 
I seen an interesting twist to non binary sports participants that struck me as perfect.

Not really watching tv I looked up and seen the Mexican AAA wrestling show, flamboyant outfits and masks, the usual tripe. Now they mix women and men in the ring and that age old chivalry of men don't fight women is out, they do get preferential lighter beating however.
It's all part of the show.

In the background was a few new characters including a group of gals, three kind of the usual fare and one with a jaw line that would make GI Joe dolls jealous. Upon looking a bit more an adams apple tells me thats no regular gal.
But hey, it's lucha libre and it's all good. Winning is preplanned and it's still a sport, at least in the highly athletic stunts they perform. Nobody is going to be getting angry in rasslin.

And I lost interest again, when I looked up it was a different show playing.
 
Rolfe said:
I can't speculate on what the cause of Semenya's distressing symptoms is, but it doesn't have anything to do with PMT or the menopause. These are things that only affect female bodies, and Semenya's body is biologically male. She has testes, not ovaries, and she doesn't have a uterus. Her body has never produced more than trace (male) amounts of either oestrogen or progesterone.
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No. The changes in hormone levels could cause the symptoms Castor described. (Insomnia, sweats, pains.)

I didn't say her symptoms were caused by PMT or menopause (nor endometriosis, PCOS, etc for that matter).


Rolfe said:
Trans, maybe. It would be an excellent way to get women's sports back to women again. The main problem there is that transwomen athletes will complain that there aren't enough of them to make it really competitive, and that may be a fair point, but also, and this is more fundamental, most of the transwomen athletes are so invested in the "validation" of competing as and being treated as a woman that they'll fight tooth and nail against the idea. For these men, nothing female must be off-limits because their compulsion is for there to be no distinction between them and women.

Intersex sports is a non-starter. There are a couple of dozen intersex conditions and they're all different. You can't take women with Turner's syndrome, Swyer's syndrome, CAIS, MRKH and whatever all else, and men with Klinefelter's syndrome and hypospadias and PAIS and whatever all else and lump them into one category. It's nuts. And even then what are you going to do about HAC and PCOS which are virilising conditions of females but are not intersex?

It would turn into something like the Paralympics, where there are a multitude of classes in each sport to accommodate different levels of disability, and you're right back to there not being enough people to make it competitive. And what would be the objective of this anyway? Intersex people are not trans. They pose a particular problem for sport because they may require particular attention to the definition of male and female, and that's about it.
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I was saying they said they wanted intersex OR trans events.

I'm starting to think even women's events in the future could be decided *before* they start if competitors are all given blood tests, biopsies etc. :D

I even saw an ad for a diet app based on women's hormonal cycle (saying that we burn energy / faster slower at various stages in cycles and life).

Not saying this is cold hard science now, but we shouldn't underestimate the future.

Similarly, every individual's sex hormones are different whether their sex/chromosomes are the same or different.

How long is a piece of string/DNA? :D

One or two more events would be a start at least.

Let's not be paralysed by unknown ideals of perfection.
 
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Sherkeu said:
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Enter the genderqueer, genderflux, agender, etc... athletes with a solution: Get rid of binary classifications to be inclusive to all. "Nobody's really tried it any other way"
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I love running for the sake of running.

I haven't done any running races/events this year for the first time in 4 years, having reached that point.

I can see where they're at in that particular respect.

One of the last events I did was an actual fun run, which did not announce any winners or losers. There are getting to be more runs like that.

I'm fond of saying that competitive sport in school sets you up for a lifetime of hating sport.

So many runners I know seem to really suffer due to comparing their results with others, often to the point of pushing themselves to injuries.


Correct me if I'm wrong, a person's gender doesn't necessarily correlate with a person's sex. The article assumes it does.
 
Puppycow said:
OK, so that's a different position than Bob's position at least.



So, the instant a person is arrested, they lose the right to change genders?



Or do they lose that right upon conviction?
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Don't see how you get that. In the UK your legal gender is only changed after a legal process, and anyone can make use of that legal process.
 
mgidm86 said:
Idiot.
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Not really it's just part of the usual contradictory crap said to us who aren't great at sports


School " it's the taking part that is important not the winning".
Me "Then I can be on the schools football* team despite not being able to kick a ball, great!"
School "No we want our team to win".
 
Orphia Nay said:
No. The changes in hormone levels could cause the symptoms Castor described. (Insomnia, sweats, pains.)

I didn't say her symptoms were caused by PMT or menopause (nor endometriosis, PCOS, etc for that matter).
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Right enough, so you didn't, sorry. I'm not aware of how a male taking (I believe) the contraceptive pill and thus decreasing testerone secretion could cause these symptoms. They are not generally described in patients undergoing that procedure.

Orphia Nay said:
I was saying they said they wanted intersex OR trans events.
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I think trans events would be an excellent idea for the reasons I stated above, and mainly to return women's events to women. I don't think transwomen athletes would accept this though, because they often seem to regard participation in women's events as "gender affirmation therapy".

And, again as I said above, intesex events are a meanimgless concept. There are a couple of dozen DSD conditions which affect either men or women, and you can't possibly lump them all in together. Why would you even want to? Intersex people are either male or female and should be able to compete in their proper sex category. They already get enough grief from people who contend that they aren't real men or real women.

Orphia Nay said:
I'm starting to think even women's events in the future could be decided *before* they start if competitors are all given blood tests, biopsies etc. :D
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You mean don't bother to run the race, just do some tests to see who "ought" to have won? I remember checking some young rams that had just been sedated for CT scanning to show their desiraible anatomy in terms of muscle mass, fat depth and so on. I jokingly remarked to the stockman that soon they wouldn't bother with agricultural shows, you'd just send your CT scan results in and get your rosette in the post. Not going to happen though!

Orphia Nay said:
Let's not be paralysed by unknown ideals of perfection.
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I don't think there's much danger of that.
 
Puppycow said:
OK, so that's a different position than Bob's position at least.

So, the instant a person is arrested, they lose the right to change genders?

Or do they lose that right upon conviction?
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No that's not what i said. I said somebody who has legally changed gender should be treated as that gender legally. Simply saying it doesn't make it legal though.
 
Nobody can change sex though, biologically, no matter what it says on the paperwork. And the law allows single-sex provisions and single-sex spaces precisely because it recognises that.
 
After researching last night's kerfuffle over local and super whiny twit, Megan Murphy, I came to learn that the Vancouver Rape Relief and Women's Shelter was Brutally vandalized a few months ago.

I thought I might have hit peak trans with this whole Yaniv thing but now I know I have.
 
Jeez yes, I just saw this. And apparently in the middle of this baying mob calling for the "terfs" to be brutally murdered there was also a chant of "no hate here".

https://twitter.com/preta_6/status/1190802292041121795

Meghan Murphy isn't a particularly great speaker. I watched her speech on YouTube and I was also present at a meeting in Glasgow when she came to speak in Scotland, and I wasn't that impressed either time. But she doesn't say anything hateful or indeed anything that should be particularly controversial. Screaming mobs demanding that no venue should host these meetings on pain of violent attacks say more about them than about her.
 
Orphia Nay said:
I love running for the sake of running.

I haven't done any running races/events this year for the first time in 4 years, having reached that point.

I can see where they're at in that particular respect.

One of the last events I did was an actual fun run, which did not announce any winners or losers. There are getting to be more runs like that.

I'm fond of saying that competitive sport in school sets you up for a lifetime of hating sport.

So many runners I know seem to really suffer due to comparing their results with others, often to the point of pushing themselves to injuries.


Correct me if I'm wrong, a person's gender doesn't necessarily correlate with a person's sex. The article assumes it does.
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The argument isn't to take away competition. There would still be winners and medals and championship trophies. The idea is to eliminate the categories of 'male' and 'female' and just have human bodies of any sex/gender/orientation compete together. Sexless. Genderless. Anyone disadvantaged by this new world of complete 'inclusiveness' should just be happy to participate for the love of sports and not care if they can't win anymore.

Not one of them admits (or even sees) what the logical outcome would be. They seem stuck on the 'exceptions' as evidence that the differences between male and female aren't meaningful.

One writer goes so far as to say:
When we look at who is being protected and from whom, we understand that the policies pushed by sporting bodies are there to propagate the kind of white supremacist misogyny that seeks to harass and exclude anyone outside of its binary and anyone who challenges that supremacy— athletes like Yearwood and Semenya.

For sport to progress, it needs to shed its fear of life beyond the binary. It is not likely that, that kind of change will come from the top because all policies regarding gender essentially protect the supremacy of men in sport overall. To keep female sport in a separate and less equal box to be “protected” only limits its possibilities — that same box prevents an open and fair environment for all gender identities to compete freely. No one should have to hide who they are to do what they love and that’s why the gender binary in sport is on borrowed time.
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My 11yo daughter has played co-ed water polo and basketball since she was 7. Some of the boys are now 13,14 years old and the differences in ability are more apparent. I asked her what she thought about high school teams having the boys and girls compete for spots. Equal chance for any student. She looked at me concerned and asked "But that's not 'really' real, is it mom? Would I get to play?". As a very tall athletic girl, she is confident. As a genderless competitor, she becomes very worried. She knows what it means.
 
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Sherkeu said:
The argument isn't to take away competition. There would still be winners and medals and championship trophies. The idea is to eliminate the categories of 'male' and 'female' and just have human bodies of any sex/gender/orientation compete together. Sexless. Genderless. Anyone disadvantaged by this new world of complete 'inclusiveness' should just be happy to participate for the love of sports and not care if they can't win anymore.

Not one of them admits (or even sees) what the logical outcome would be. They seem stuck on the 'exceptions' as evidence that the differences between male and female aren't meaningful.

One writer goes so far as to say:


My 11yo daughter has played co-ed water polo and basketball since she was 7. Some of the boys are now 13,14 years old and the differences in ability are more apparent. I asked her what she thought about high school teams having the boys and girls compete for spots. Equal chance for any student. She looked at me concerned and asked "But that's not 'really' real, is it mom? Would I get to play?". As a very tall athletic girl, she is confident. As a genderless competitor, she becomes very worried. She knows what it means.
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That doesn't sound like a problem.
 
Rolfe said:
Nobody can change sex though, biologically, no matter what it says on the paperwork. And the law allows single-sex provisions and single-sex spaces precisely because it recognises that.
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where they are necessary and justified yes. not just on a whim.
 
And your whim may be someone else's necessary and justified. Maybe referring to the previous tweet.
 
Stout said:
I'm going to go waaaaaaay out on a limb here and take a wild ass guse that you're not a girl and it's not a "problem" for you because it doesn't affect you.
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But I'm in the same boat in that after puberty I was no longer physically competitive...before puberty also.

https://www.fox19.com/2019/10/10/ohio-teen-wheelchair-scores-touchdown-with-help-his-teammates/

I mean, I probably should have got a free touchdown like this kid. While I do not possess any disability, him and I are both equally capable of scoring a touchdown in a competitive game.
 
BobTheCoward said:
But I'm in the same boat in that after puberty I was no longer physically competitive...before puberty also.

https://www.fox19.com/2019/10/10/ohio-teen-wheelchair-scores-touchdown-with-help-his-teammates/

I mean, I probably should have got a free touchdown like this kid. While I do not possess any disability, him and I are both equally capable of scoring a touchdown in a competitive game.
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This isn't that though, this is something completely different.

This is about girls getting discouraged about competing in sports because they might be forced to compete against boys. If I was a girl and I was into competitive sports, I would think this sucks.
 
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