Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

[JayUtah]

This is an age of reason, and we are making great intellectual advances.

But you seem to have little if any regard for them. You constantly belittle science as having a stunted form of enlightenment and being hobbled by limited ability to observe and deduce. Yet you're spending this age of great intellectual advances following fortune tellers who you admit can't always get it right and who may not be the real McCoy anyway. You clearly have a much higher opinion of spiritualism than you do of skepticism or science. But you lack the ability to provide anything beyond ad hoc guesswork.

History teaches us these things go in cycles.

No.

 

[Thor 2]

Quite interesting that the spirits apparently are clothed. I wonder why? I assume that in the paradise spirit world, the temperature is always perfect, and because they have no libido, there is no reason to cover their sexual organs if they have any.

Yes it has always amused me also. A movie called "Ghosts" I think showed a fully clothed spirit emerging from a dead body as an example.

 

[JayUtah]

As I say its arguable.

No. You made categorical statements. Only now that you're on the hook to resolve the contradictions between them do you try to say the information is ambiguous.

Very well, if it is "arguable" then simply admit you don't know how it works. Otherwise reconcile your claims.

The angels can see all this, and know what is going to happen, but they do not cause it or prevent it.

Then in what sense do they "rule over" the process of reincarnation? I don't lift a finger to cause the trains in my town to run. Nor do I prevent them from running. I can read the train schedule, which "sees into the future" and tells me what to predict for the train system's behavior. Does that mean I "rule over" the train system in any meaningful way?

I believe they take the long view in that they can see everything is going to work out for the ultimate good.

If they have no cause or effect, then why does it matter what interval of perspective they have? You can't perpetually vacillate between "angels of karma" as omnipotent beings making decisions about how the afterlife works, and "angels of karma" as passive observers of a system beyond their control. Make up your mind.

 

[Darat]

I suspect we are going to go to "rest and reboot" shortly.

 

[Thor 2]

I suspect we are going to go to "rest and reboot" shortly.

Then it will be back to the endless stream of patchwork answers, to the avalanche of inevitable questions, because of the inconsistent structure of Scorpion's spiritual world. No amount of clear reason will dent his faith - he just knows because he knows ...... can feel it in his chakras I suspect.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

.... because of the state of evolution of our soul.

How on Earth can a "soul" with no DNA and no pressure from the environment, evolve?

 

[P.J. Denyer]

All Hail JayUtah, Ruler of Trains!

 

[Darat]

No. You made categorical statements. Only now that you're on the hook to resolve the contradictions between them do you try to say the information is ambiguous.

Very well, if it is "arguable" then simply admit you don't know how it works. Otherwise reconcile your claims.



Then in what sense do they "rule over" the process of reincarnation? I don't lift a finger to cause the trains in my town to run. Nor do I prevent them from running. I can read the train schedule, which "sees into the future" and tells me what to predict for the train system's behavior. Does that mean I "rule over" the train system in any meaningful way?



If they have no cause or effect, then why does it matter what interval of perspective they have? You can't perpetually vacillate between "angels of karma" as omnipotent beings making decisions about how the afterlife works, and "angels of karma" as passive observers of a system beyond their control. Make up your mind.

It also raises the question of if they know the end point why weren't the souls created like that in the first place?

 

[steenkh]

It is arguable that angels knowing the future are predetermining our fate. But it is also our free will to make those actions, and reap what we sow.

Angels are predetermining our fate, but we are free to make those actions? That is contradictory: If the angels are predetermining our fate, then we are not free to do anything else, and vice versa.

The Christians have the same problem: Gods knows the future, and we have to live that future, but it is also claimed that we are free to choose it ourselves

 

[Gamolon]

As I say its arguable.

No Scorpion. That's not what you initially said.

The angels of karma can undoubtedly see into the future, and they know some people are going to do evil. Those evil people may be instrumental in causing suffering that pays some other souls karma.

Why are you backpedaling now? First you say they CAN see in the future and that they KNOW people will do evil and now, after being challenged, you say it's arguable that they can see the future.

We can have free will to act,

No it's NOT free will.

The Angels SEE into the future and SEE incarnations doing bad/evil things to other incarnations and knowingly stuff souls into both. Explain how this is free will Scorpion.

Now that your beliefs have been shown to be contradictory, you backpedal.

 

[Gamolon]

Angels are predetermining our fate, but we are free to make those actions? That is contradictory: If the angels are predetermining our fate, then we are not free to do anything else, and vice versa.

 

[Gamolon]

True it is known to the angels of karma that unevolved souls will cause suffering, and thereby reap future bad karma.

You say this and then say incarnated spirits have free will? That these spirits have a choice? You just said that the Angels of Karma KNOW THAT SPIRITS WILL CAUSE SUFFERING. That means that when the Angels pick an incarnation that they know will cause suffering, THERE IS NO CHOICE. The Angels of Karma have foreseen it.

Or are you now saying that you were wrong and Angels of Karma cannot see the future ?

 

[JayUtah]

Maybe Scorpion is the reincarnation of Thomas Aquinas. Or John Calvin. Or even maybe and John Calvin.

See, Scorpion, your homemade religion is going through the same growing pains as every prior religion that tried to mix omniscient, omnipotent gods with souls that have free will. You're not going to solve that problem here, today. You're never going to solve it, because nobody really has yet. That's because, as other posters are endeavoring to help you see, the concepts are inherently contradictory.

So if you want to get out of the philosophical quagmire into which you've predictably fallen -- see, we can look into the future too -- then it's very simple. You need to embrace the "It's arguable..." and admit that you really have no idea what you're talking about. That means you have to admit that the "mediums in a trance" have no more power to actually see a real afterlife than my dog has. They're taking you for a ride, Scorpion. They're making it up as they go, falling into all the same pitfalls as all the pretend theologians before them.

 

[Thor 2]

Oh it's all too confusing.

There is a god it seems who is incapable of creating perfect souls for us humans, so we have to go thru this evolving routine involving lots of incarnations, to make the grade. On the other hand he manages to make angels, to help us along the way. Are these angel souls made perfect? If so said god has the ability to make perfect souls.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

All Hail JayUtah, Ruler of Trains!

I remain an AJayist. I have doubt of his claims that trains have any sort of predictability. [He said grumbling thinking about all the times he's been late to work]

 

[JayUtah]

<yoda> Always in motion is the future </yoda>

 

[Darat]

I suspect we are going to go to "rest and reboot" shortly.

Hmm... seems it is not only the Angels of Karma that can see into the future.....

 

[Scorpion]

Oh it's all too confusing.

There is a god it seems who is incapable of creating perfect souls for us humans, so we have to go thru this evolving routine involving lots of incarnations, to make the grade. On the other hand he manages to make angels, to help us along the way. Are these angel souls made perfect? If so said god has the ability to make perfect souls.

I do not know enough about angels to say if they are perfect, but I think not.
The angels are a separate species who never incarnate, and therefore they are not tried and tested like us. I have read somewhere the angels sometimes envy us our struggles. Because they never had a choice but to serve gods will.
There may be some truth in the story of the fallen angel, but Silver Birch says there is no supreme devil. The angels know there is no other way than to serve the will of God because to them his presence is obvious. We are not talking about an old man with a beard here. The God I believe in is a formless ocean of consciousness. But unlike us the angels can see his light and power. So there is not much point in rebelling.

 

[Scorpion]

Maybe Scorpion is the reincarnation of Thomas Aquinas. Or John Calvin. Or even maybe and John Calvin.

See, Scorpion, your homemade religion is going through the same growing pains as every prior religion that tried to mix omniscient, omnipotent gods with souls that have free will. You're not going to solve that problem here, today. You're never going to solve it, because nobody really has yet. That's because, as other posters are endeavoring to help you see, the concepts are inherently contradictory.

So if you want to get out of the philosophical quagmire into which you've predictably fallen -- see, we can look into the future too -- then it's very simple. You need to embrace the "It's arguable..." and admit that you really have no idea what you're talking about. That means you have to admit that the "mediums in a trance" have no more power to actually see a real afterlife than my dog has. They're taking you for a ride, Scorpion. They're making it up as they go, falling into all the same pitfalls as all the pretend theologians before them.

I have decided it is not contradictory that God and the angels can see the future and that we still have free will. God and the angels know what is going to happen when we act according to our limitations, but they do not intervene to save us from our mistakes. They simply guide the process of our karma to give us the motivations and opportunities to change our ways.

I may have difficulties winning such a debate as I am not the sharpest knife in the box, which is something I said in the opening post. But when I reflect on it I realize that if I am right and all of you atheists are wrong then our deaths will prove it to us all. When we are all dead and we wake up in the spirit world, I will have the last laugh.

 

[curious cat]

Yes they do sometimes provide untrue information. Trevor Williams the medium, told me to take much of what I was told by mediums with a pinch of salt.

So, after receiving the information from spirits, you can be as sure about anything as you were before then, right?