My Favorite Democrat

The "nuke the filibuster" thing doesn't seem a real issue. Its been brought up a few times, but doesn't seem to have real support. And there doesn't even seem to be any one group that has a hard stance one way or another. It is apparently based on the personal assessment of each rep you ask. Some progressives want to nuke, some want to preserve it. Some corporate Dems want to nuke it, some want to preserve it.

But almost all will agree that the real problem isn't the filibuster, or any one point of parliamentary procedure. The problem is that one party is using the rules to acquire more power and shut down the actual work of the government. No rule can be useful while they remain there.
 
If you're talking about the business of governing, when a bill is introduced or a candidate nominated for a position, there are only two choices, yes or no...


No, that's not true. As with the primary process, which creates the illusion there are only two choices, the yes-or-no vote idea creates the same illusion. But in the minds of the voting population there are many feelings, many positions, and there may be no majority position.

That's why we aren't able to settle complicated issues with a single up or down vote. If we could the question of abortion would have been resolved decades ago. But going almost 50 years after the Roe v Wade decison, abortion remains an unresolved social problem with no clear resolution in sight.

The way we make progress in resolving those problems is by people talking -- to their friends, their neighbors, their communities, to the people they agree with and the people they disagree with -- in conversations, in discussion groups, in letters to the editor, in something I've heard about call social media posts, and whatever other ways they're comfortable with. Campaigning for a candidate, or campaigning to get laws passed, is a way to stimulate these discussions, but it's these discussions which bring about the actual change.

It wasn't the passage of the civil rights acts of 1964 and 1965 which changed US society so dramatically from what it had been 10 years prior; rather, the laws were able to be passed because society had changed remarkably. In 1954 civil rights activists were considered violent agitators and commie traitors; by 1965 there was still a considerable portion of the country which opposed civil rights and desegregation but a majority had come to agree that blacks had been badly mistreated and deserved more equal treatment. The laws didn't cause that, they were a way of recognizing that and moving us forward to the next level of conversations on the issue (which, unfortunately, did not get resolved nearly as well).

Similarly, it wasn't the passage of laws which changed attitudes on gay marriage -- but putting forward laws and court cases and referenda were ways of stimulating the social conversation and getting people to discuss and re-think their feelings on the issue. Again, we've seen remarkable social change over the last few decades, and the legislative process helped bring about that change by helping stimulate the conversations and arguments people needed to have to bring about a different social attitude toward gay relationships and gay rights.

Civil rights in the 50s was never a yes-or-no question. Abortion is not a yes-or-no question. Health care is not a yes-or-no question. Corruption in government is not a yes-or-no question.

You can bring up yes-or-no questions to try to stimulate conversations but those are generally not the best questions to ask because people's feelings on the issues are a lot more complicated and need more complex discussions. We saw that during the recent Democratic debates, when the raise-your-hands yes-or-no questions were interesting gotcha moments but really didn't help people understand well where the different candidates stood, let alone what the right answers to how to address problems such as making sure people can get the health care they need are.

Filibusters, when properly used, are a useful tool in helping the social discussion even if it's sometimes hard to see that. But they need to be properly used. The filibusterers need to be required to talk continuously, and the vote should only be delayed for as long as they are willing and able to do that and as long as enough other members of the group are willing to let them continue talking. It's not a perfect tool but it is potentially a useful one which I think should be kept in the tool set.


... and in our representative democracy the majority rules.


No. You still don't see the point I've been making, which is that majority rule and the outcome of majority vote are two distinctly different things. The outcome of majority vote is not majority rule unless an actual majority will exists, and very often it doesn't.

Majority vote allows you to lump people with a wide variety of very different views into 2 groups, count the number in each group, and say one of the 2 groups is the majority. It isn't. It's a somewhat arbitrary grouping of people who aren't really in agreement, and if you were to offer up one of the other options a majority of the electorate would likely prefer it to the one which has been declared the majority will.

It doesn't matter whether the choices are Sanders, Clinton, Trump and Coulter (as in the example I provided) or keep ObamaCare, expand ObamaCare, replace ObamaCare with MedicareForAll, replace ObamaCare with MedicareForAllWhoWantIt, scrap ObamaCare entirely and let everyone fend for themselves, and whatever other options people want to put out there. The point is that none of these options, at present, is actually the will of the majority. By putting things up for a vote you can pick one and claim it's the majority will, but that doesn't make it the majority will because none of these are.

In the example I provided, it's possible to make one of the 4 candidates the "majority choice" by having primaries, getting it down to 2 candidates, having a vote between the 2 of them, and declaring the one who wins that vote the winner. But as I showed, regardless of which one wins, a majority would have preferred one of the others if given that choice. There is no unique majority among them.

Likewise there is no unique majority choice among the options on health care reform. There is no unique majority choice among the options on abortion. There is no unique majority choice among the options on immigration. Rather, there are numerous positions held by different groups of people which can be lumped together in different ways to create the illusion of a majority.

But what we need isn't the illusion of a majority. What we need is an actual sense of agreement among society about how to deal with an issue. And that kind of agreement only comes about through good social discussion. Putting candidates up for election and putting issues up for votes can be a good way of promoting that discussion, but it's that discussion which is needed and until that discussion succeeds in unifying society around one position or another no actual majority exists except the majority which says we're not really in agreement yet.
 
I tend to think that the proper place for feats of endurance in a democracy is as far away from deliberative legislative bodies as we can get them. We might as well settle parliamentary questions with arm-wrestling contests.

The filibuster is almost uniquely stupid, in a political system full of face-palm worthy stupidities. It's an unforeseen result of a minor parliamentary change in...1806? We could regard that as a happy accident, if we had any reason to. The senate has never been a representative body, the minority party formally representing no political or demographic minority. These are not minority concerns anyone who isn't a senator or party functionary ought to care about.

In reality, the senate has famously frustrated attempts to protect the serious concerns of political and demographic minorities. Strom Thurmond broke records filibustering the Civil Right Act. The US is about 12% black, so you might hope that there would be around 12 black senators, to protect their "minority concerns", which have historically been under severe threat. Instead there are 10...ever. In the history of the country. Well done.

People ought to be able to produce examples where the filibuster has produced more refined legislation if that's a real effect, but such examples are not forthcoming. In the current context, the effect of the filibuster, liberated of the mannered restraint of the past, is to stymie all legislation. Since reconciliation is a necessary feature of our legislative process, this leads to general congressional paralysis. The effect ultimately is to shift power away from a body that is increasingly (and understandably) seen as dysfunctional, towards the other branches of government.

And it's made all the more frustrating by the fact that this could easily be remedied by a simple majority vote, unlike all the other entrenched, broken features of our system of government. It's a bug that should have been patched as soon as it was exploited, 180 years ago.

But the filibuster is a whoopty-**** American tradition, and people are biased in favor of the status quo. Talk to someone from the UK, and chances are good that they'll defend the existence of their stupid ******* Dungeons & Dragons monarchy. I swear, our species will end up drowning in an inch of water.

I've never been more tempted to say, "This." Probably the next worst thing about the legislative branch is the absolute power of the majority party via the speaker and committee assignment.
 
No. You still don't see the point I've been making, which is that majority rule and the outcome of majority vote are two distinctly different things. The outcome of majority vote is not majority rule unless an actual majority will exists, and very often it doesn't.


And yet, somehow, we have to muddle through the business of government, and being pedantic about "majority rule" meaning something unachievable doesn't seem to be particularly helpful. Yes, I understand the difference between that and "majority vote" but somehow we still have to decide e.g. that abortion will or will not be legal, regardless of the "unresolved social problem."

More helpful would be specific recommendations for improving our democracy, e.g. ranked choice voting, abolishing the Electoral College, etc., or to bring it back on topic, whether or not the filibuster should be allowed. Maybe whether or not the Senate should exist.
 
And yet, somehow, we have to muddle through the business of government, and being pedantic about "majority rule" meaning something unachievable doesn't seem to be particularly helpful. Yes, I understand the difference between that and "majority vote" but somehow we still have to decide e.g. that abortion will or will not be legal, regardless of the "unresolved social problem."


Yes, we do still have to resolve important social issues such as whether abortion will still be legal (and, even if legal, actually accessible). And the point I've been making is that filibusters, properly used, are a helpful part of the legislative process which lets us make progress on resolving those issues.

Voting is a highly flawed process. Some voting systems are better, some are worse, but voting alone does not help us resolve social issues.

But a good voting system can help us have better discussions about the issues our society is dealing with so we can make better progress in resolving them. The filibuster is a useful tool for helping the voting system (at the legislative level) work better.

More helpful would be specific recommendations for improving our democracy, e.g. ranked choice voting, abolishing the Electoral College, etc. ...


Yes, all of those are good topics to discuss in an appropriate thread. (I've commented several times in the past on the value of Instant Runoff Voting aka Ranked Choice Voting, and I'd be happy to take part in future discussions of that. I think IRV is an even more valuable tool -- much more valuable -- than the filibuster in helping our voting system work well.)

But IRV and the electoral college and numerous other ways of improving our democratic process aren't relevant to this thread. The main topic is Kirsten Sinema, whom Brainster likes because he sees her as bipartisan, and a sub-topic is the filibuster, her support of which is one of the reasons Brainster sees her as bipartisan.


... or to bring it back on topic, whether or not the filibuster should be allowed.


And that is what I have been repeatedly saying: that it should be allowed (although not the way it is currently being misused).

Some people disagreed with me out of mistaken notions about how our voting system works -- such as their belief that our voting system ascertains what the majority wants and it's therefore improper to delay that result from being obtained and implemented immediately. Since our voting system does not actually ascertain what the majority will is, it's often beneficial not to declare too quickly what the majority has allegedly decided or to implement too quickly what is being declared to be the majority will.
 
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