Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

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Somehow we've got into a situation where sex can be re-defined as "whatever I think it is" but the same principle mysteriously doesn't apply to race/colour, or nationality, or height, or age or any other empirically verifiable attribute. Why should the possession of an internal combustion engine be any different?
 
Rolfe said:
Somehow we've got into a situation where sex can be re-defined as "whatever I think it is" but the same principle mysteriously doesn't apply to race/colour, or nationality, or height, or age or any other empirically verifiable attribute. Why should the possession of an internal combustion engine be any different?
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Race is pretty iffy, IMO.

If I asked a dozen skeptics how many human races exist, I'd get half a dozen answers.
 
Well, exactly. It's one situation where it's not unreasonable to declare that race is whatever you want it to be. I doubt if there are many people around who don't have a bit of this and a bit of that in them, and I suspect if Rachel Dolezal took a DNA test she might find she had a little bit of black African in there somewhere. And we all know that people with just a little bit of black African frequently identify as black.

But if someone paints themselves up in blackface makeup and dons a golly wig and announces that this is his true inner self, they'll get pelters. Meanwhile if women object to men donning high heels and pancake makeup and call it womanface, we get pelters. Even though it's perfectly simple to determine whether someone is male or female, there aren't any true inbetweens, and there's no rational reason at all why someone born in a male body could claim in any way to be female.
 
Huh. I'd never made that kind of connection between drag and blackface before.

It seems that many of the same arguments could be made against the one as the other. It's offensive. It's stereotypical. It's appropriative.

My god, drag is appropriative! It's men, making a caricature of feminine appearance, for entertainment. That's pretty messed up, when you think about it.

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Also when you think about it, white people dressing like gangstas is pretty much the new blackface. But you don't see people freaking out about it.
 
theprestige said:
Huh. I'd never made that kind of connection between drag and blackface before.

It seems that many of the same arguments could be made against the one as the other. It's offensive. It's stereotypical. It's appropriative.

My god, drag is appropriative! It's men, making a caricature of feminine appearance, for entertainment. That's pretty messed up, when you think about it.
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There's tons written about it. I read quite an insightful article the other day, but I doubt if I could find it again.

I also read a post from a woman who went to an office Hallowe'en party dressed as a male character, and HR pressurised her to go home because her appearance was "triggering" a transwoman colleague. "Sarah has been crying in the toilet and I can't force you to go home but it would be better if you did." The logic was that the woman was still perceived as female even though she was dressed as a male character, whereas "Sarah" would be perceived as male (as "she" really is) if she were to do that. This upset "her" so she ruined the woman's evening.

Meanwhile there were two men dressed as female characters. The woman, not unreasonably, asked why they weren't a problem. The first answer was that they weren't triggering "Sarah" and the second was that since some about-to-come-out transwomen make their first forays into woman's clothes at fancy dress parties (this may well be true, I know my friend who transitioned did it) and we mustn't say anything in case that's why they've dressed like this. (Apparently the possibility that the woman being sent home might be working up to coming out as a transman didn't feature.)

That's a bit of a digression though, I don't see why people shouldn't portray characters of the opposite sex if they want to. It's the stereotypical drag act that's "punching down" that can often be very offensive. And yes I love the Rocky Horror Show too, call me inconsistent. Although come to think of it that may be poking fun at drag and autogynies rather than women.
 
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Here's an interesting incident:

Social Justice Activist Gets Kicked Out Of Fellowship For Constant Complaints, Claims Racism

[ . . . ]

The student, Julia Feliz, uses the pronouns “they” and “them,” and, according to other students in the program, would constantly tie every classroom issue to social justice issues. This took time away from science, and frustrated other fellows.

[ . . . ]

It is accurate that Mx. Feliz was asked to leave the 2019 Fellows program. This decision was not taken lightly. This was made after Mx. Feliz engaged in behavior that caused numerous and repeated complaints from other fellows over many weeks. It became clear that the educational experience of other fellows was being compromised due to ongoing interruptions of classroom lectures and discussions by Mx. Feliz. Cornell staff made many attempts to support and work with Mx. Feliz, including referrals to appropriate university offices to explore Mx. Feliz’s allegations of discrimination in the program; however, Mx. Feliz chose not to take advantage of independent university support programs, instead raising Mx. Feliz’s concerns within the classroom, leading to additional complaints from other fellows. Program leadership ultimately determined with sincere regret that Mx. Feliz was not benefitting from the program and that Mx. Feliz’s continued presence was depriving other fellows of their opportunity to benefit from the program.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/soci...lowship-for-constant-complaints-claims-racism​

1. Identify a respected institution.
2. kill it.
3. gut it.
4. wear its carcass as a skin suit, while demanding respect.

- David Burge
 
Rolfe said:
Somehow we've got into a situation where sex can be re-defined as "whatever I think it is" but the same principle mysteriously doesn't apply to race/colour, or nationality, or height, or age or any other empirically verifiable attribute. Why should the possession of an internal combustion engine be any different?
Click to expand...

And in every single situation if I receive sufficient evidence that it is significantly a matter if self identity, I will honor it for something like height, too.
 
theprestige said:
Here's an interesting incident:

Social Justice Activist Gets Kicked Out Of Fellowship For Constant Complaints, Claims Racism

[ . . . ]

The student, Julia Feliz, uses the pronouns “they” and “them,” and, according to other students in the program, would constantly tie every classroom issue to social justice issues. This took time away from science, and frustrated other fellows.

[ . . . ]

It is accurate that Mx. Feliz was asked to leave the 2019 Fellows program. This decision was not taken lightly. This was made after Mx. Feliz engaged in behavior that caused numerous and repeated complaints from other fellows over many weeks. It became clear that the educational experience of other fellows was being compromised due to ongoing interruptions of classroom lectures and discussions by Mx. Feliz. Cornell staff made many attempts to support and work with Mx. Feliz, including referrals to appropriate university offices to explore Mx. Feliz’s allegations of discrimination in the program; however, Mx. Feliz chose not to take advantage of independent university support programs, instead raising Mx. Feliz’s concerns within the classroom, leading to additional complaints from other fellows. Program leadership ultimately determined with sincere regret that Mx. Feliz was not benefitting from the program and that Mx. Feliz’s continued presence was depriving other fellows of their opportunity to benefit from the program.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/soci...lowship-for-constant-complaints-claims-racism​

1. Identify a respected institution.
2. kill it.
3. gut it.
4. wear its carcass as a skin suit, while demanding respect.

- David Burge
Click to expand...

What in the blue **** does "mx" mean?
 
BobTheCoward said:
And in every single situation if I receive sufficient evidence that it is significantly a matter if self identity, I will honor it for something like height, too.
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I'm curious how that would work. If a short person told you that they identified as a tall person, you would treat them as though they were tall?
 
BobTheCoward said:
The whole point is to treat people how they wish to be treated.
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That's a very bad idea. People shouldn't be treated how they want to be treated, they should be treated the way they deserve to be treated. Criminals shouldn't be treated as if they are law abiding, your employees shouldn't be treated as if they were your boss, etc.

And even in the case of height, no, short people shouldn't be treated as if they were tall. For example, there are amusement park rides which have height requirements for safety reasons. You aren't doing short people a favor by ignoring those requirements because they identify as tall. Or for a more common example, you shouldn't move your car seat forward to make more legroom for a person sitting behind you if they don't need more legroom, just to satisfy their "identity".
 
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