Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

[JayUtah]

The medium told me my brother was standing next to her and he looked just like me.

So he grew to "physical" maturity despite the lack of ordinary matter, and he looked like you, for some reason. What did his spirit look like when he died? Was it an infant? What does it look like today? Is his spirit a decayed old man?

He was studying in the spirit world, and developing his mind.

So one can "mature" in that sense too in the spirit world. You haven't reconciled this with the need for reincarnation. Apparently spirits age just like meat sacks, and apparently one can acquire knowledge without being incarnated. What good would studying do, if he's just going to be reincarnated and lose it all as the next body goes through the crying and indiscriminate pooping phases? And then if he happens to die in infancy again, he'll have to "grow to maturity" again. Why would "Lawrence" have been in any sense immature under this model?

He also said he had lots of girlfriends.

Except you said love was unavailable in the spirit world. Yet another detail you just threw in there to give your story color without worrying about whether it's a fact or whether you just contradicted something you said previously.

Were his spirit girlfriends "mature" in the sense that they looked like some idealized version of their last incarnation? What if they'd been dead only 14 years and hadn't yet grown to spirituo-physical "maturity" in appearance? Is there some faction of the Karma Kops that enforce age-of-consent laws in the afterlife?

That is all I know about him.

I say you're making all this up. Convince me otherwise.

 

[JayUtah]

You don't know any of that, Scorpion. You may believe it, but you don't know it.

The sheer amount of crap some people need to make up in order to cushion their fragile worldview just boggles my mind sometimes.

 

[Thor 2]

People in the spirit world experience it as real. In fact Silver Birch says the spirit world is the real world, and our world is the illusion. I have heard it said the light in the spirit world apparently comes from above, but not from a sun. It never gets dark in the higher realms.

Light constantly coming from above?

This has to be a flat world you are talking about Scorpion, as it's hard to imagine it being otherwise.

So many things to take on board here. Spirits not made of matter but somehow emitting or reflecting light so they can be seen. Able to travel from one place to another in no time but still having a spirit world they inhabit.

Now you tell us this spirit world is the "real world" and our own material world an "illusion". Hard to get your head around this stuff although it has a Matrix ring to it.

 

[Scorpion]

Why do spirits need girlfriends or boyfriends? Spirits do not have physical bodies, hormones or an ability to reproduce. Sounds like more wish fulfilment. Also its not very imaginative that she just claimed he looked like you. Were there no aesthetic differences?

People have friends in the spirit world Justas they do in this world.

Spirits have bodies, but not the same as physical bodies. The Chinese guide of my friend Trevor Williams once said through him that sex is neutral in the spirit world. There is no sex or reproduction, but the spirit retains the gender of the persons last incarnation. I do not know if spirits retain sex organs but since I have heard they don't have organs they don't need it seems likely they don't. But even if they did we can assume they have no libido. They certainly cannot reproduce.
As spirits evolve to higher planes they eventually become asexual.

The medium said my brother looked just like me, but did not elaborate.

 

[Thor 2]

So he grew to "physical" maturity despite the lack of ordinary matter, and he looked like you, for some reason. What did his spirit look like when he died? Was it an infant? What does it look like today? Is his spirit a decayed old man?

No you silly. The spirit matures or rejuvenates into a person in its physical prime until it gets incarnated again. Then it becomes a tiny, tiny, speck that you can only see with a psychic microscope attached to the embryo.

How did I do Scorpion?

 

[JayUtah]

People have friends in the spirit world Justas they do in this world.

Girlfriend implies something more.

Spirits have bodies, but not the same as physical bodies.

Did grown-up Lawrence have a penis? What if he reincarnated into a female body?

The Chinese guide of my friend Trevor Williams once said...

Not an actual source.

You make a big deal about science being unable to know things, and therefore being incomplete and unreliable. This drivel is what you propose to be more reliable?

The medium said my brother looked just like me, but did not elaborate.

Once again, you provide detail in order to give your stories a certain degree of color, but then have to walk them back after that detail doesn't add up. Your stories are conveniently either long or short on detail depending on the circumstances of the debate.

 

[JayUtah]

Now you tell us this spirit world is the "real world" and our own material world an "illusion". Hard to get your head around this stuff although it has a Matrix ring to it.

Hm. The physical world is an illusion, but it seems real. The spirit world may be illusory, but it seems real to those who inhabit it. But also a spirit authority has told us the spirit world is the real world. My impression is that any religions that embrace that incoherent ball of gobbledygook would also have to include the words "bong" and "hit."

 

[Filippo Lippi]

The medium said my brother looked just like me

"Gullible"

 

[abaddon]

The medium told me my brother was standing next to her and he looked just like me.

What were they standing on? Hell, what were they standing with? Your "spirit world" seems oddly identical to the real world when convenient. At other times it is composed of amorphous, asexual, disembodied non-physical "spirits" when that seems convenient. How curious.

He said the stuff about how he died,

Nope. You cannot know that, you can only repeat the claims of the "medium" that made that claim.

but he also went on to say he was studying in the spirit world, and developing his mind.

A useless pursuit since you have already claimed that incarnation is required to achieve further progress.

He advised me to do the same, rather than being ruled by my emotions.

No he didn't. The medium claimed that he so urged you. And it is an empty claim. It applies to anyone and everyone. It is no different than the one-size-fits-all astrology found in trashy newspapers and magazines.

He also said he had lots of girlfriends.

Odd thing to have for a disembodied asexual spirit, no?

That is all I know about him.

You know none of that. He could have communicated directly to you in person. But that didn't happen. Some intervening idiot simply claimed all of these things. And they were lying to you.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

Yes, my brother grew up to maturity in the spirit world, and for all I know he might have chosen to reincarnate again by now. But people can sometimes spend a long time in the spirit world between incarnations. It could be hundreds of earth years before some spirits choose to reincarnate.

(basing this solely on you even having a brother)

No. Unfortunately, your brother is dead. Full stop. He died just as anyone else who ever lived has died. Your inability to properly cope and come to terms with his passing has lead you into this pro-war word soup philosophy you currently adopt.

I'm nearing 10 years without my father, It would undoubtedly be happy, for a moment perhaps, To imagine him sitting in lawnchair sipping his Pepsi and gnawing on a delicious steak in a sunny cosmic afterlife BBQ.

However, Scorpion this is where you fail to see the detriment of your ideas. Believing so would diminish the life he had, The memories I keep of him are meaningless because I can just have new ones in the nebulous beyond or maybe if I search long enough I'll find that random person he came back as and we can pick up where we left off.

Death is awful but the faster we accept its inevitability and finality the faster we can back to cherishing the time we have with the people we care about.

 

[JayUtah]

...but the spirit retains the gender of the persons last incarnation. I do not know if spirits retain sex organs...

So gender is not determined by sex organs. That would seem progressive if we didn't delve a bit further.

But even if they did we can assume they have no libido. They certainly cannot reproduce.

What's wrong with libido? What's wrong with sex for fun, even if there's no possibility of reproduction?

You told us that one of the big reasons spirits choose to reincarnate was that because love was denied to them in the spirit world. You're telling us a sort of platonic love persists there, so we have to assume the love that's craved in the physical world is the physical kind. But why would someone with no libido be craving sex? And if physical sex is so naughty as to be forbidden in the lower planes of spiritual existence and (as you say below) done away with entirely on the executive floors, then why is it part of what people must reincarnate for in order to progress?

As spirits evolve to higher planes they eventually become asexual.

Why would that need to happen? Oh, right, because this is Victorian-era spiritualism, and the spirit world naturally needs to comport with the contrived notions of sexuality and social order that the Victorians tried to impose -- ultimately unsuccessfully. Enlightenment in Victorian circles depended in part on how disinterested you were in physical love. Hence enlightenment in Victorian-era spiritualism requires a decreasing relevance for sex. Sure, genders persist because gender roles were a big part of social order, irrespective of the operation of those dangly bits that imparted the roles. Men need to act like proper men and women need to act like proper women, but the Victorians didn't want all those messy hormones gumming up their perfect social order. Physical attraction was a vestigial mode of attraction, to be patiently endured and not talked about. its true aim was to progress to a point where proper men and proper women would sit properly in the parlour, ramrod straight, sipping tea and talking of the weather and everyone's health.

The medium said my brother looked just like me, but did not elaborate.

Looking like a thing in the spirit world would only matter if spirits had eyeballs. And you told us that everything in the spirit world seems real. So perceptions of other kind remain possible. The fresh flowers on the parlour table smell like roses. The tea tastes like tea, and the lemon tastes like lemon. So apparently eyeballs and eardrums work just fine, but ovaries and testicles are annoying appurtenances that get turned off in the afterlife. How very Victorian.

 

[Scorpion]

The immortal spirit is created by God, therefore it figures that spirits do not reproduce.
If they do not reproduce they need no sex organs. But they apparently retain the gender appearance of their last incarnation, at least until they ascend to higher planes where they evolve beyond sexual appearances.

 

[JayUtah]

The immortal spirit is created by God, therefore it figures that spirits do not reproduce.
If they do not reproduce they need no sex organs. But they apparently retain the gender appearance of their last incarnation, at least until they ascend to higher planes where they evolve beyond sexual appearances.

You didn't address a single point I raised. I take it that means you can't.

 

[JayUtah]

But they apparently...

But you don't know for sure, because this is third-hand information you got from a self-proclaimed medium, not anything you can actually observe or test. For all you know, this is completely made up.

...retain the gender appearance of their last incarnation, at least until they ascend to higher planes where they evolve beyond sexual appearances.

If there's no sex, and gender doesn't really matter either, the why was it important to know that Lawrence had lots of girl-friends? Would not boy-friends have been of equal importance?

 

[JayUtah]

...where they evolve beyond sexual appearances.

And what are the canonically acceptable "sexual appearances" for the lower levels of the spirit world? Can men have long hair? I've always wanted Legolas hair. I have two friends who are post-operative trans men. Will their boobs grow back in the spirit world when they die? You mentioned Chinese spirit guides. Will all the cultural conventions regarding gender appearance and conduct be respected in the spirit world? Clearly you're claiming that "sexual appearance" can't possibly include the standard reproductive organs, so what conventions of "gender appearance" prevail? And what about cultures whose gender roles involve fertility rituals? Will they be forced to adopt your Victorian-era morals?

And getting back to little Lawrence's heavenly harem, why does it matter whether they're presently girls? You told us you retain the gender appearance (whatever we end up deciding that means) of their previous incarnation. You also told us that spirits can choose to reincarnate either as men or as women. (Let's leave the gender dysphoria problems aside for now.) So Lawrence was no more inherently a boy than any of his "girlfriends" were inherently girls. For all you know, Lawrence had been previously a girl and will choose to be reincarnated as one again. And for all you know, his "girlfriends" in the spirit world had all been linebackers for Notre Dame at one cycle or another in their journey. Please, oh, please tell us why it was important for Lawrence to evoke traditional Victorian gender roles and conduct in a world where you tell us it's all so very unimportant and fluid.

 

[Gamolon]

Even if I gave most of the money to charities I would still be depriving the people who would have won that money. That kind of personal gain is against the rules of the occult.

So the spirit world has a hard monetary cap for what is "allowable monetary deprivation" and what is "forbidden monetary deprivation"?

 

[Gamolon]

The spirit world do not want or intend to give absolute proof of their existence to the people of this world. Because that would defeat the very object of incarnation. Which is to choose our own path through the world and by doing so invoke karma that is designed to teach us to spiritually evolve. If we had absolute proof of the existence of the spirit world we might as well stay there and not incarnate at all.

Yes, I think the spirit world are desperate to get a message through that life goes on and there is a better world after this one. I think they are desperate because they can see into the future and they see disasters coming. They want to comfort as many people as they can using anyone, even the likes of me. Obviously some spirits can see into the future or they would not have been able to give me the lottery numbers in advance.

Can you elaborate on the above contradiction that supposedly exists in the spirit world? You state that the spirit world does NOT want to provide proof of its existence because that would defeat the very object of incarnation, but then you state that spirits want to get the message through that life goes on and there is a better world after this one.

Which is it? Does the spirit world not want to interfere with the choice of incarnation or does it?

 

[Steve]

Can you elaborate on the above contradiction that supposedly exists in the spirit world? You state that the spirit world does NOT want to provide proof of its existence because that would defeat the very object of incarnation, but then you state that spirits want to get the message through that life goes on and there is a better world after this one.

Which is it? Does the spirit world not want to interfere with the choice of incarnation or does it?

Different spirits have different ideas, dontcha know. Same as why some want to help poor mortals and others just want to scare the crap out of them.

 

[Thor 2]

The immortal spirit is created by God, therefore it figures that spirits do not reproduce.
If they do not reproduce they need no sex organs. But they apparently retain the gender appearance of their last incarnation, at least until they ascend to higher planes where they evolve beyond sexual appearances.

Their "appearance" is in a clothed state then I assume, so you can't see if the sexual bits are missing. You might like to fill us in about transgender folk also, as you seem to have such a comprehensive knowledge about this. Do they appear as pre or post coming out. There can be quite a difference from my observations.

 

[Darat]

It really is a case of making up whatever sounds most appealing, isn't it? No attempt is made to justify any of it. It's just "what would you most like to believe? OK, that's what the spirits told me".

And of course no critical thinking about what those claims actually mean, the consequences of them and so on. Indeed believers like Scorpion often bury their heads in the sand when you confront them with the true horror of their beliefs.